[esp-r] Re: Heating and Cooling Loads

Fri Sep 11 09:08:56 BST 2009

In other comparative validation studies of this type, it has been found
essential that you have model equivalence between all models. For
example, I suggest you look at making sure all programs make the same
assumptions regarding surface coefficients for this test case,
particularly internal convection coefficients - important in cases such
as these where insulation values are low.

Regards
Paul

> this concludes the first round of test. As before, esp-r slightly under estimated loads.
> [cid:394145205 at 11092009-351E]
>
> Regards,
>
> David Tang
> Chief Engineer, Energy Solutions
> Owens Corning
> T: +86 21 6101 9587; F: +86 21 6101 9588; m: +86 13817249419
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Xing, Nina
> Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 1:36 PM
> To: Rodrigo Perez; 'Felipe Durán'
> Cc: Tang, David; esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk; Tang, Kevin; 'leen peeters'
> Subject: RE: [esp-r] Re: Heating and Cooling Loads
>
> Hi, all
>
> I had tried the simulation using both DesignBuilder and eQuest.
> The results showed the difference between them is tiny.
>
> DB   Heating 8.88kW   Cooling 3.66kW
> eQ   Heating 8.73kW   Cooling 3.04kW
>
> Best regards.
> Nina Xing  邢娜
> Energy Solutions
> Owens Corning
> • +86 21 6101 9590
> 7 +86 21 6101 9588
> ( +86 1361 1986 052
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Rodrigo Perez [mailto:rodrigo.jpg at gmail.com]
> Sent: 2009年9月11日 3:12
> To: 'Felipe Durán'
> Cc: Tang, David; esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk; Tang, Kevin; 'leen peeters'; Xing, Nina
> Subject: RE: [esp-r] Re: Heating and Cooling Loads
>
> Felipe and David,
>
> Simulating the same model proposed by David in DesingBuilder, I have the following result:
>
> Heating            8,99 Kw.
> Cooling            2,44 Kw.
>
>
> Kind Regards,
>
>
> Rodrigo Perez.
>
> [cid:394145205 at 11092009-3525]
>
>
> ________________________________
> De: Felipe Durán [mailto:felipe at b-green.cl]
> Enviado el: jueves, 10 de septiembre de 2009 14:39
> Para: Felipe Durán
> CC: Tang, David; esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk; Tang, Kevin; leen peeters; Xing, Nina; Rodrigo Perez
> Asunto: Re: [esp-r] Re: Heating and Cooling Loads
>
> David,
>
> I made a mistake and I simulated with esp-r using London Climate.
> The rectified cooling and heating loads using CHL_Santiago_IWEC.epw for the 1 zone 10x10x3 concrete box are:
>
> IES_VE 14,66 kW (heating) 5.27 kW (cooling)
> ESP-r 8,029 kW (heating) 2,24 kW (cooling)
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Felipe Durán Palma
> Arquitecto PUC, MPhil. U. Cambridge
> Director de Proyectos y Asesorías
>
> [cid:394145205 at 11092009-352C]
>
> Obispo Donoso 5 oficina 62 - Providencia - Santiago
> felipe at b-green.cl<mailto:felipe at b-green.cl> - www.b-green.cl<http://www.b-green.cl> - 56 (2) 3431868
>
>
>
>
>
>
> El 10 Sep 2009, a las 13:31, Felipe Durán escribió:
>
>
> David,
>
> Thank you for your help.
> The results of the 1 zone 10x10x3 concrete box are:
>
> IES_VE   14,66 kW (heating) 5,27 kW (cooling)
> ESP-r      11,90 kW (heating)   1,86 kW (cooling)
>
> 1. Geometry: 1 zones of 10 m x 10 m x 3 m high.
>
> 2. Materials (outside to inside)
> 2.1 External Wall: Cast Concrete 0,2m,  U-value = 3,1963 (W/m2K)
> 2.2 Roof: Cast Concrete 0,2  U-value = 3,5354 (W/m2K)
> 2.3 Ground Floor: Cast Concrete 0.2 m, U-value = 2.8340 (W/m2K)
>
> 3. Boundary Conditions: All the walls and the roof faces the outside. The ground floor faces the ground.
>
> 4. Run Period: 1/1 31/12 (whole year)
>
> 5.No Internal gains
>
> 6. Climate file CHL_Santiago_IWEC.epw (from the energyplus database)
>
> 7.  Comfort band 20 Cº-24Cº, on Heating and Cooling Profile: continiously
>
> 8. No Ventilation
>
>
> Thank you again
>
> Felipe Durán Palma
> Arquitecto PUC, MPhil. U. Cambridge
> Director de Proyectos y Asesorías
>
> <pastedGraphic.tiff>
>
> Obispo Donoso 5 oficina 62 - Providencia - Santiago
> felipe at b-green.cl<mailto:felipe at b-green.cl> - www.b-green.cl<http://www.b-green.cl> - 56 (2) 3431868
>
>
>
>
>
>
> El 9 Sep 2009, a las 22:56, Tang, David escribió:
>
>
> Felipe,
> I'd like to start with your 'a zone of 10 x 10 x 3 mt. high with no ventilation and no internal gains' model which is an excellent case to evaluate the fundamental algorithms.
>
> Please provide info of that model likewise.
>
> Having worked at IES-VE for 8+ years and coded part of Apache-sim and the whole of macroflo, it is interesting to see how it works from user's point of view.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> David Tang
> Chief Engineer, Energy Solutions
> Owens Corning
> T: +86 21 6101 9587; F: +86 21 6101 9588; m: +86 13817249419
>
>
> From: Felipe Durán [mailto:felipe at b-green.cl]
> Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 1:01 AM
> To: Tang, David
> Cc: leen peeters; Tang, Kevin; Xing, Nina; esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk<mailto:esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk>; Rodrigo Perez
> Subject: Re: [esp-r] Re: Heating and Cooling Loads
> David and Rodrigo,
>
> Thank you for your help.
> I`ve simplify the model and the results of the 3-floor office building are:
>
> IES_VE   390 kW (heating) 123 kW (cooling)
> ESP-r     246 kW (heating)  205 kW (cooling)
>
>
> The model conditions of the 3-floor office building are:
> IES_VE 390 kW (heating) 123 kW (cooling)
>
> 1. Geometry: 3 zones of 25 m x 60 m x 2.5 m high. 40% of glazing ratio for all the orientations
>
> 2. Orientation: North towards the long side (25 meters)
>
> 3. Materials (outside to inside)
> 3.1 External Wall: cast concrete 0,2m, Polystyrene 0.02m, Gypsum Plasterboard 0,01m. U-value = 0.9597 (W/m2K)
> 3.2 Window: Double glazing, clear float 6mm + 12mm cavity. U-Value=2.82 (W/m2K)
> 3.3 Roof: Cast concrete (lightweight) 0.05m, Polystyrene 0.15m, cast concrete 0,15m. U-value = 0.1859 (W/m2K)
> 3.4 Ground Floor: Cast Concrete 0.15 m, polystyrene 0.05 m, U-value = 0.5041 (W/m2K)
> 3.5 Slabs: cast Concrete 0.15, U-value = 3,2558 (W/m2K)
>
> 4. Boundary Conditions: All the walls and the roof faces the outside. The slabs are interiors and only the ground floor faces the grund.
>
> 5. Run Period: 1/1 31/12 (whole year)
>
> 6. Internal gains: Occupancy 6 m2/person (70 W Sensible, 35 W latent), Lighting 8 W/m2, Equipment 5 W7m2. All the time for the whole year, including nights, weekends, etc.
>
> 7. Climate file CHL_Santiago_IWEC.epw (from the energyplus database)
>
> 8.  Comfort band 20 Cº-24Cº
>
> 9. Ventilation: infiltration 0.25 (ach/h), auxiliari ventilatios 3.25 (ach/h) on ESP-r  infiltration of 3.25 (ach/h)
>
> Thank you again
>
>
> Felipe Durán Palma
> Arquitecto PUC, MPhil. U. Cambridge
> Director de Proyectos y Asesorías
>
>
>
> Obispo Donoso 5 oficina 62 - Providencia - Santiago
> felipe at b-green.cl<mailto:felipe at b-green.cl> - www.b-green.cl<http://www.b-green.cl> - 56 (2) 3431868
>
>
>
>
>
>
> El 9 Sep 2009, a las 00:22, Tang, David escribió:
>
>
> Describe your model we'll run DOE2 and EnergyPlus to see who's right.
>
> geometry,
> orientation
> wall, window, roof materials,
> boundary conditions (is the wall contact outside, ground, other indoor space?)
> run period (from mm/dd to mm/dd),
> etc.
> as detail as possible.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> David Tang
> Chief Engineer, Energy Solutions
> Owens Corning
> T: +86 21 6101 9587; F: +86 21 6101 9588; m: +86 13817249419
>
>
> From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk<mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk> [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Felipe Durán
> Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2009 5:10 AM
> To: leen peeters
> Cc: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk<mailto:esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk>
> Subject: [esp-r] Re: Heating and Cooling Loads
> Leen,
>
> I am working with the EPW climate file of Santiago de Chile in both soft wares. I ve modelled a zone of 10 x 10 x 3 mt. high with no ventilation and no internal gains. The results are:
>
> ESP-r = 11.9 (heating), 1.86 (cooling)
> IES = 14.6 (heating), 5.2 (cooling)
>
> Now we got great differences in the cooling load. IES gave me 3 times more cooling loads than ESP-r
>
> Any ideas how to go proceed?
>
> Felipe Durán Palma
> Arquitecto PUC, MPhil. U. Cambridge
> Director de Proyectos y Asesorías
>
> Obispo Donoso 5 oficina 62 - Providencia - Santiago
> felipe at b-green.cl<mailto:felipe at b-green.cl> - www.b-green.cl<http://www.b-green.cl> - 56 (2) 3431868
>
>
> El 8 Sep 2009, a las 16:49, leen peeters escribió:
>
>
> Felipe,
>
> set you climate to some artifical constant climqte with constant temperature, constant solar radiation,... That is one more set of variables excluded
>
> Leen
> 2009/9/8 Felipe Durán <felipe at b-green.cl<mailto:felipe at b-green.cl>>
> Dear Samuel and Leen,
>
> Actually, when I found out such big differences I ve modelled a very simple 3-zone model and the differences persist.
>
> I will try out with a simple box without ventilation and internal gains and I will let you know the results.
>
> Thank you all for your help.
>
> Felipe Durán Palma
> Arquitecto PUC, MPhil. U. Cambridge
> Director de Proyectos y Asesorías
>
> <pastedGraphic.tiff>
>
> Obispo Donoso 5 oficina 62 - Providencia - Santiago
> felipe at b-green.cl<mailto:felipe at b-green.cl> - www.b-green.cl<http://www.b-green.cl/> - 56 (2) 3431868
>
>
> El 8 Sep 2009, a las 13:19, Aizaz Samuel escribió:
>
>
> Try reducing your model complexity by modelling just one zone with minimal
> information possible. Simulate for just one day. If the two softwares compare
> well keep building up the model in complexity.
>
> -Aizaz
>
>
> On Tuesday 08 September 2009 17:41, Felipe Durán wrote:
>
> Dear All,
> I am modeling in both ESP-r and IES-VE and office building and the results
> for heating and cooling loads are very different.
>
>  ESP-r = 269 kW (heating); 237 kW (cooling)
> IES-VE = 835 kW (Heating); 360 kW (cooling)
>
>  Does anyone had a similar experience with such differences?
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Felipe Durán Palma
> Arquitecto PUC, MPhil. U. Cambridge
> Director de Proyectos y Asesorías
> [cid:B9AD3F91-76F4-4F37-8A2C-7A559281C059<http://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&ik=8c428781db&view=att&th=1239aec006a1c658&attid=0.0.1.1&disp=emb&zw>]
> Obispo Donoso 5 oficina 62 - Providencia - Santiago
> felipe at b-green.cl<mailto:felipe at b-green.cl><mailto:felipe at b-green.cl> -
> www.b-green.cl<http://www.b-green.cl><http://www.b-green.cl<http://www.b-green.cl/>> - 56 (2) 3431868
>
>
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Dr P A Strachan                   email: paul at esru.strath.ac.uk
ESRU, Dept. of Mechanical Eng.          phone: +44 141 548 2041
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