[esp-r] Re: Calculation of solar gains through complex shading devices
Germán Molina Larrain
gmolina1 at uc.cl
Thu May 9 22:19:52 BST 2013
I am new at ESPr... how do the TDFs (temporal definition files) work? What
is the format? I am interested in generating them and I could not find
anything about them on the internet.
THANKS VERY MUCH
German
2013/5/7 Marco Manzan <manzan at units.it>
> hi German
>
> I'm following a different approach for solving complex fenestration and
> daylighting using different softwares, for instance DAYSIM for daylighting
> calculation and ESP-r for energy solution.
> Using DAYSIM I obtain a file with the energy consumption for internal
> luminaries, DAYSIM takes into accont auser behaviour and different kinds of
> controls on shading devices so also glare problem can be taken into
> account,
> then I send the information from DAYSIM, that is shading system schedule
> and
> internal loads due to artificial illumination and internal load (function
> of
> occupancy) to ESP-r by means of TDF (temporal definition files). The energy
> computation is performed using the complex fenestration and the control is
> driven by the TDF file generated using the DAYSIM code. Soon I hope to be
> able
> to commit the changes in my branch. For sure the time required for a whole
> year computation depends on the DAYSIM runtime and can be very time
> consuming.
>
> Marco Manzan
>
> In data martedì 7 maggio 2013 15:05:24, esp-r-request at lists.strath.ac.ukha
> scritto:
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> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Re: Calculation of solar gains through complex shading
> > devices (Germ?n Molina Larrain)
> > 2. Re: Calculation of solar gains through complex shading
> > devices (Geissler Achim)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 09:51:30 -0400
> > From: Germ?n Molina Larrain <gmolina1 at uc.cl>
> > Subject: [esp-r] Re: Calculation of solar gains through complex
> > shading devices
> > To: Geissler Achim <achim.geissler at fhnw.ch>
> > Cc: "esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk" <esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk>
> > Message-ID:
> > <CAF-iH4KSysOUcp2b7rc4=
> E42FohtcnJxGHoBhmeHV2E6ThiMEQ at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > BSDFs can be generated using WINDOW, and I evaluated using Radiance's
> > genBSDF to generate Solar Bidirectional Information (compared the results
> > with the analytical models done inside WINDOW 6.0 and over). Nowadays,
> the
> > BSDFs come in a standard (probably still evolving) .xml file, and I
> thinkg
> > E+ format is very simple (I saw one once, but very quickly).
> >
> > On the other hand, how does ESPr use Radiance or the Lighting
> calculations?
> > Making an annual simulation may take a really long time.
> >
> > The reason why I chose the Three-phase method is because it allows "easy"
> > control of shading, and a very fast simulation. Also, it allows to change
> > and evaluate different shading systems. So it is very good for
> optimization.
> >
> >
> > 2013/5/7 Geissler Achim <achim.geissler at fhnw.ch>
> >
> > > Hi Germ?n****
> > >
> > > ** **
> > >
> > > some comments below, inline.****
> > >
> > > ** **
> > >
> > > Best****
> > >
> > > Achim****
> > >
> > > ** **
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > T +41 61 467 44 51
> > >
> > > achim.geissler at fhnw.ch
> > > www.fhnw.ch/iebau
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > ****
> > >
> > > ** **
> > >
> > > *Von:* germolinal at gmail.com [mailto:germolinal at gmail.com] *Im Auftrag
> von
> > > *Germ?n Molina Larrain
> > > *Gesendet:* Dienstag, 7. Mai 2013 15:33
> > > *An:* Geissler Achim
> > > *Cc:* esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk
> > > *Betreff:* Re: [esp-r] Calculation of solar gains through complex
> shading
> > > devices****
> > >
> > > ** **
> > >
> > > Hi Achim, ****
> > >
> > > ** **
> > >
> > > my original idea of workflow was thought on the basis of a
> straightforward
> > > finide difference simulation (as I have done in Matlab)... so it would
> be
> > > to make the solar simulations (calculation of solar gains and
> Daylight),
> > > and then, to make the thermal simulation; knowing the flows to each
> node
> > > (calculated before).****
> > >
> > > ** **
> > >
> > > Now, since you say that ESPr supports BSDF input, maybe the whole
> thermal
> > > simulation should be done in ESPr, leaving Radiance just for lighting.
> I
> > > have been working on the generation of the BSDFs, and I think the
> problem
> > > is practically solved right now, using tools that already exist (I
> expect
> > > I
> > > can publish something related to this). How long do those (BSDFed)
> > > simulations take? I have heard that in E+ they take considerably more
> time
> > > than the other ones.****
> > >
> > > ** **
> > >
> > > I'm afraid I can't tell you, as I have never personally used that
> > > particular feature of ESP-r. Also, I am not sure if the format is any
> > > "general" BSDF type. How do you generate your BSDFs?****
> > >
> > > ** **
> > >
> > > As far as I am aware, the three-phase-method and the "coupling" with
> > > EnergyPlus requires two runs? Could you describe the necessary
> workflow /
> > > calculation steps? Where / in which program is the setting of a
> Venetian
> > > type blind set, for example? Based on what?****
> > >
> > > ** **
> > >
> > > The direct coupling, I was informed, is complicated. But, just as in
> ESPr,
> > > E+ was provided with the capability of using BSDF information in a very
> > > similar way as the Three-phase method does. So everything is actually
> made
> > > on E+.****
> > >
> > > ** **
> > >
> > > ** **
> > >
> > > Anyway, I guess the best should be to make the lighting simulation,
> > > calculate the electric lighting consumption and transform it into
> internal
> > > gains for a posterior ESPr simulation, considering BSDFs? Please feel
> free
> > > to comment.****
> > >
> > > ** **
> > >
> > > Well, basically ESP-r and Radiance can be used fully coupled. I.e., if
> you
> > > want to have lighting control, you can couple a Radiance model, let
> that
> > > do
> > > the lighting calculations and give back which percentage of the pre-set
> > > set
> > > point are covered by daylight - ESP-r will then add the rest as
> electric
> > > internal gain based on the defined electric light installation. The
> gain
> > > due to daylight is taken into account by the solar gain. This can also
> be
> > > used with the CFCs - there is an experimental feature which generates
> the
> > > Radiance Model with a Venetian type blind during run-time with the slat
> > > angle as given by solar needs (e.g. "cut off" control). Computing times
> > > are, of course, somewhat longer than usual.****
> > >
> > > ** **
> > >
> > > ** **
> > >
> > > THANKS VERY MUCH****
> > >
> > > ** **
> > >
> > > German****
> > >
> > > ** **
> > >
> > > 2013/5/7 Geissler Achim <achim.geissler at fhnw.ch>****
> > >
> > > Dear German****
> > >
> > > ****
> > >
> > > basically, that is a very interesting idea. However, I would not expect
> > > this to be easy and straightforward, as one strength of ESP-r is that
> it
> > > solves all the physics simultaneously. Currently, there are two
> possible
> > > ways to include complex shading: The "CFC" model for multi-layer
> > > constructions (to date, this covers venetian type blinds, roller blinds
> > > and
> > > meshes are "in the works" as far as I am aware) and the input of
> > > bi-directional reflection / transmission input data ("BRTD") - here the
> > > problem is basically generating the necessary input data, however this
> may
> > > be possible via Window 7 (LBNL), now.****
> > >
> > > ****
> > >
> > > ESP-r can basically take the solar distribution on the surfaces of the
> > > zone behind the window into account. In the mainstream code, the CFCs
> lack
> > > daylighting, however. I am not sure what the situation in this regard
> for
> > > the "BRTD"-type of models is.****
> > >
> > > ****
> > >
> > > As far as I am aware, the three-phase-method and the "coupling" with
> > > EnergyPlus requires two runs? Could you describe the necessary
> workflow /
> > > calculation steps? Where / in which program is the setting of a
> Venetian
> > > type blind set, for example? Based on what?****
> > >
> > > ****
> > >
> > > Best****
> > >
> > > Achim****
> > >
> > > ****
> > >
> > > ****
> > >
> > > ****
> > >
> > > *Von:* esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk [mailto:
> > > esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk] *Im Auftrag von *Germ?n Molina
> Larrain
> > > *Gesendet:* Dienstag, 7. Mai 2013 01:07
> > > *An:* esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk
> > > *Betreff:* [esp-r] Calculation of solar gains through complex shading
> > > devices****
> > >
> > > ****
> > >
> > > Hello, ****
> > >
> > > ****
> > >
> > > I am German Molina, and I am doing my MSc. on complex shading systems,
> and
> > > how to treat them for simulation purposes (Lighting and Solar Heat
> Gains).
> > > I do not really use ESPr or any other thermal simulation tools, just
> > > Radiance for now.****
> > >
> > > ****
> > >
> > > Finished my literature review, I realized that one method used for
> > > lighting (the Three-phase method) might be good to be a good estimator
> of
> > > the Solar Heat Gains through complex fenestration systems... later I
> found
> > > out that some people did this, and actually nowadays something very
> > > similar
> > > can be implemented in EnergyPlus.****
> > >
> > > ****
> > >
> > > Long story short, I think (it is waiting for a validation) that I can
> > > accurately calculate the Solar Heat Gains through virtually any complex
> > > fenestration system of known BSDF matrices; and not only net solar heat
> > > gains, but I think I can also say where the solar radiation is going
> > > (calculate the fraction that goes to the ceiling, to the floor, etc.).
> How
> > > difficult would it be to use this output as an input for ESPr? For
> what I
> > > understand, ESPr does not handle very well these kind of systems?****
> > >
> > > ****
> > >
> > > What I am proposing can be actually reduced to just one phrase: Lets
> use
> > > Radiance to what it does best (radiation transport) and ESPr to what I
> > > think it does best (Thermal simulation).****
> > >
> > > ****
> > >
> > > THANKS VERY MUCH****
> > >
> > > ****
> > >
> > > German Molina****
> > >
> > > ** **
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
> >
> http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20130507/fb681b46/atta
> > chment-0001.html
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 13:44:24 +0000
> > From: Geissler Achim <achim.geissler at fhnw.ch>
> > Subject: [esp-r] Re: Calculation of solar gains through complex
> > shading devices
> > To: Germ?n Molina Larrain <gmolina1 at uc.cl>
> > Cc: "esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk" <esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk>
> > Message-ID:
> > <BC9FF28A18B2A8499742D2B15D1A323A1709E9C6 at MXAMU23.adm.ds.fhnw.ch>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > Hi Germ?n
> >
> > some comments below, inline.
> >
> > Best
> > Achim
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > T +41 61 467 44 51
> >
> > achim.geissler at fhnw.ch<mailto:achim.geissler at fhnw.ch>
> > www.fhnw.ch/iebau<http://www.fhnw.ch/iebau>
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> > Von: germolinal at gmail.com [mailto:germolinal at gmail.com] Im Auftrag von
> > Germ?n Molina Larrain Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. Mai 2013 15:33
> > An: Geissler Achim
> > Cc: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk
> > Betreff: Re: [esp-r] Calculation of solar gains through complex shading
> > devices
> >
> > Hi Achim,
> >
> > my original idea of workflow was thought on the basis of a
> straightforward
> > finide difference simulation (as I have done in Matlab)... so it would be
> > to make the solar simulations (calculation of solar gains and Daylight),
> > and then, to make the thermal simulation; knowing the flows to each node
> > (calculated before).
> >
> > Now, since you say that ESPr supports BSDF input, maybe the whole thermal
> > simulation should be done in ESPr, leaving Radiance just for lighting. I
> > have been working on the generation of the BSDFs, and I think the problem
> > is practically solved right now, using tools that already exist (I
> expect I
> > can publish something related to this). How long do those (BSDFed)
> > simulations take? I have heard that in E+ they take considerably more
> time
> > than the other ones.
> >
> > I'm afraid I can't tell you, as I have never personally used that
> particular
> > feature of ESP-r. Also, I am not sure if the format is any "general" BSDF
> > type. How do you generate your BSDFs?
> >
> > As far as I am aware, the three-phase-method and the "coupling" with
> > EnergyPlus requires two runs? Could you describe the necessary workflow /
> > calculation steps? Where / in which program is the setting of a Venetian
> > type blind set, for example? Based on what?
> >
> > The direct coupling, I was informed, is complicated. But, just as in
> ESPr,
> > E+ was provided with the capability of using BSDF information in a very
> > similar way as the Three-phase method does. So everything is actually
> made
> > on E+.
> >
> >
> > Anyway, I guess the best should be to make the lighting simulation,
> > calculate the electric lighting consumption and transform it into
> internal
> > gains for a posterior ESPr simulation, considering BSDFs? Please feel
> free
> > to comment.
> >
> > Well, basically ESP-r and Radiance can be used fully coupled. I.e., if
> you
> > want to have lighting control, you can couple a Radiance model, let that
> do
> > the lighting calculations and give back which percentage of the pre-set
> set
> > point are covered by daylight - ESP-r will then add the rest as electric
> > internal gain based on the defined electric light installation. The gain
> > due to daylight is taken into account by the solar gain. This can also be
> > used with the CFCs - there is an experimental feature which generates the
> > Radiance Model with a Venetian type blind during run-time with the slat
> > angle as given by solar needs (e.g. "cut off" control). Computing times
> > are, of course, somewhat longer than usual.
> >
> >
> > THANKS VERY MUCH
> >
> > German
> >
> > 2013/5/7 Geissler Achim
> > <achim.geissler at fhnw.ch<mailto:achim.geissler at fhnw.ch>> Dear German
> >
> > basically, that is a very interesting idea. However, I would not expect
> this
> > to be easy and straightforward, as one strength of ESP-r is that it
> solves
> > all the physics simultaneously. Currently, there are two possible ways to
> > include complex shading: The "CFC" model for multi-layer constructions
> (to
> > date, this covers venetian type blinds, roller blinds and meshes are "in
> > the works" as far as I am aware) and the input of bi-directional
> > reflection / transmission input data ("BRTD") - here the problem is
> > basically generating the necessary input data, however this may be
> possible
> > via Window 7 (LBNL), now.
> >
> > ESP-r can basically take the solar distribution on the surfaces of the
> zone
> > behind the window into account. In the mainstream code, the CFCs lack
> > daylighting, however. I am not sure what the situation in this regard for
> > the "BRTD"-type of models is.
> >
> > As far as I am aware, the three-phase-method and the "coupling" with
> > EnergyPlus requires two runs? Could you describe the necessary workflow /
> > calculation steps? Where / in which program is the setting of a Venetian
> > type blind set, for example? Based on what?
> >
> > Best
> > Achim
> >
> >
> >
> > Von: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk<http://ath.ac.uk>
> > [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk<mailto:
> esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.
> > ac.uk>] Im Auftrag von Germ?n Molina Larrain Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. Mai
> 2013
> > 01:07
> > An: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk<mailto:esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk>
> > Betreff: [esp-r] Calculation of solar gains through complex shading
> devices
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > I am German Molina, and I am doing my MSc. on complex shading systems,
> and
> > how to treat them for simulation purposes (Lighting and Solar Heat
> Gains).
> > I do not really use ESPr or any other thermal simulation tools, just
> > Radiance for now.
> >
> > Finished my literature review, I realized that one method used for
> lighting
> > (the Three-phase method) might be good to be a good estimator of the
> Solar
> > Heat Gains through complex fenestration systems... later I found out that
> > some people did this, and actually nowadays something very similar can be
> > implemented in EnergyPlus.
> >
> > Long story short, I think (it is waiting for a validation) that I can
> > accurately calculate the Solar Heat Gains through virtually any complex
> > fenestration system of known BSDF matrices; and not only net solar heat
> > gains, but I think I can also say where the solar radiation is going
> > (calculate the fraction that goes to the ceiling, to the floor, etc.).
> How
> > difficult would it be to use this output as an input for ESPr? For what I
> > understand, ESPr does not handle very well these kind of systems?
> >
> > What I am proposing can be actually reduced to just one phrase: Lets use
> > Radiance to what it does best (radiation transport) and ESPr to what I
> > think it does best (Thermal simulation).
> >
> > THANKS VERY MUCH
> >
> > German Molina
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
> >
> http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20130507/5773ecb1/atta
> > chment.html
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > esp-r mailing list
> > esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk
> > http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r
> >
> > End of esp-r Digest, Vol 82, Issue 4
> > ************************************
> --
> _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
> |Marco Manzan Email: manzan at units.it |
> |Tel: (+39) 040 5583506 Fax : (+39) 040 572033 |
> |Dipartimento di Ingegneria e Architettura |
> |Universita' degli Studi di Trieste |
> |piazzale Europa 1, 34127 TRIESTE |
> |_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _|
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