<div dir="ltr">I am new at ESPr... how do the TDFs (temporal definition files) work? What is the format? I am interested in generating them and I could not find anything about them on the internet.<div> </div><div style> THANKS VERY MUCH</div><div style> </div><div style>German</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"> <div class="gmail_quote">2013/5/7 Marco Manzan <<a href="mailto:manzan@units.it" target="_blank">manzan@units.it</a>> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">hi German I'm following a different approach for solving complex fenestration and daylighting using different softwares, for instance DAYSIM for daylighting calculation and ESP-r for energy solution. Using DAYSIM I obtain a file with the energy consumption for internal luminaries, DAYSIM takes into accont auser behaviour and different kinds of controls on shading devices so also glare problem can be taken into account, then I send the information from DAYSIM, that is shading system schedule and internal loads due to artificial illumination and internal load (function of occupancy) to ESP-r by means of TDF (temporal definition files). The energy computation is performed using the complex fenestration and the control is driven by the TDF file generated using the DAYSIM code. Soon I hope to be able to commit the changes in my branch. For sure the time required for a whole year computation depends on the DAYSIM runtime and can be very time consuming. Marco Manzan In data martedė 7 maggio 2013 15:05:24, <a href="mailto:esp-r-request@lists.strath.ac.uk">esp-r-request@lists.strath.ac.uk</a> ha scritto: > Send esp-r mailing list submissions to > <a href="mailto:esp-r@lists.strath.ac.uk">esp-r@lists.strath.ac.uk</a> > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > <a href="http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r" target="_blank">http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r</a> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > <a href="mailto:esp-r-request@lists.strath.ac.uk">esp-r-request@lists.strath.ac.uk</a> > > You can reach the person managing the list at > <a href="mailto:esp-r-owner@lists.strath.ac.uk">esp-r-owner@lists.strath.ac.uk</a> > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of esp-r digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Calculation of solar gains through complex shading > devices (Germ?n Molina Larrain) > 2. Re: Calculation of solar gains through complex shading > devices (Geissler Achim) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 09:51:30 -0400 > From: Germ?n Molina Larrain <<a href="mailto:gmolina1@uc.cl">gmolina1@uc.cl</a>> > Subject: [esp-r] Re: Calculation of solar gains through complex > shading devices > To: Geissler Achim <<a href="mailto:achim.geissler@fhnw.ch">achim.geissler@fhnw.ch</a>> > Cc: "<a href="mailto:esp-r@lists.strath.ac.uk">esp-r@lists.strath.ac.uk</a>" <<a href="mailto:esp-r@lists.strath.ac.uk">esp-r@lists.strath.ac.uk</a>> > Message-ID: > <CAF-iH4KSysOUcp2b7rc4=<a href="mailto:E42FohtcnJxGHoBhmeHV2E6ThiMEQ@mail.gmail.com">E42FohtcnJxGHoBhmeHV2E6ThiMEQ@mail.gmail.com</a>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" <div class="im">> > BSDFs can be generated using WINDOW, and I evaluated using Radiance's > genBSDF to generate Solar Bidirectional Information (compared the results > with the analytical models done inside WINDOW 6.0 and over). Nowadays, the > BSDFs come in a standard (probably still evolving) .xml file, and I thinkg > E+ format is very simple (I saw one once, but very quickly). > > On the other hand, how does ESPr use Radiance or the Lighting calculations? > Making an annual simulation may take a really long time. > > The reason why I chose the Three-phase method is because it allows "easy" > control of shading, and a very fast simulation. Also, it allows to change > and evaluate different shading systems. So it is very good for optimization. > > > 2013/5/7 Geissler Achim <<a href="mailto:achim.geissler@fhnw.ch">achim.geissler@fhnw.ch</a>> > </div>> > Hi Germ?n**** > > > > ** ** > > > > some comments below, inline.**** > > > > ** ** > > > > Best**** > > > > Achim**** > > > > ** ** <div class="im">> > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > T <a href="tel:%2B41%2061%20467%2044%2051" value="+41614674451">+41 61 467 44 51</a> > > > > <a href="mailto:achim.geissler@fhnw.ch">achim.geissler@fhnw.ch</a> > > <a href="http://www.fhnw.ch/iebau" target="_blank">www.fhnw.ch/iebau</a> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > </div>> > **** > > > > ** ** > > > > *Von:* <a href="mailto:germolinal@gmail.com">germolinal@gmail.com</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:germolinal@gmail.com">germolinal@gmail.com</a>] *Im Auftrag von > > *Germ?n Molina Larrain > > *Gesendet:* Dienstag, 7. Mai 2013 15:33 > > *An:* Geissler Achim > > *Cc:* <a href="mailto:esp-r@lists.strath.ac.uk">esp-r@lists.strath.ac.uk</a> > > *Betreff:* Re: [esp-r] Calculation of solar gains through complex shading > > devices**** > > > > ** ** > > > > Hi Achim, **** > > > > ** ** <div class="im">> > > > my original idea of workflow was thought on the basis of a straightforward > > finide difference simulation (as I have done in Matlab)... so it would be > > to make the solar simulations (calculation of solar gains and Daylight), > > and then, to make the thermal simulation; knowing the flows to each node </div>> > (calculated before).**** > > > > ** ** <div class="im">> > > > Now, since you say that ESPr supports BSDF input, maybe the whole thermal > > simulation should be done in ESPr, leaving Radiance just for lighting. I > > have been working on the generation of the BSDFs, and I think the problem > > is practically solved right now, using tools that already exist (I expect > > I > > can publish something related to this). How long do those (BSDFed) > > simulations take? I have heard that in E+ they take considerably more time </div>> > than the other ones.**** > > > > ** ** <div class="im">> > > > I'm afraid I can't tell you, as I have never personally used that > > particular feature of ESP-r. Also, I am not sure if the format is any </div>> > "general" BSDF type. How do you generate your BSDFs?**** > > > > ** ** <div class="im">> > > > As far as I am aware, the three-phase-method and the "coupling" with > > EnergyPlus requires two runs? Could you describe the necessary workflow / > > calculation steps? Where / in which program is the setting of a Venetian </div>> > type blind set, for example? Based on what?**** > > > > ** ** <div class="im">> > > > The direct coupling, I was informed, is complicated. But, just as in ESPr, > > E+ was provided with the capability of using BSDF information in a very > > similar way as the Three-phase method does. So everything is actually made </div>> > on E+.**** > > > > ** ** > > > > ** ** <div class="im">> > > > Anyway, I guess the best should be to make the lighting simulation, > > calculate the electric lighting consumption and transform it into internal > > gains for a posterior ESPr simulation, considering BSDFs? Please feel free </div>> > to comment.**** > > > > ** ** <div class="im">> > > > Well, basically ESP-r and Radiance can be used fully coupled. I.e., if you > > want to have lighting control, you can couple a Radiance model, let that > > do > > the lighting calculations and give back which percentage of the pre-set > > set > > point are covered by daylight - ESP-r will then add the rest as electric > > internal gain based on the defined electric light installation. The gain > > due to daylight is taken into account by the solar gain. This can also be > > used with the CFCs - there is an experimental feature which generates the > > Radiance Model with a Venetian type blind during run-time with the slat > > angle as given by solar needs (e.g. "cut off" control). Computing times </div>> > are, of course, somewhat longer than usual.**** > > > > ** ** > > > > ** ** > > > > THANKS VERY MUCH**** > > > > ** ** > > > > German**** > > > > ** ** > > > > 2013/5/7 Geissler Achim <<a href="mailto:achim.geissler@fhnw.ch">achim.geissler@fhnw.ch</a>>**** > > > > Dear German**** > > > > **** <div class="im">> > > > basically, that is a very interesting idea. However, I would not expect > > this to be easy and straightforward, as one strength of ESP-r is that it > > solves all the physics simultaneously. Currently, there are two possible > > ways to include complex shading: The "CFC" model for multi-layer > > constructions (to date, this covers venetian type blinds, roller blinds > > and > > meshes are "in the works" as far as I am aware) and the input of > > bi-directional reflection / transmission input data ("BRTD") - here the > > problem is basically generating the necessary input data, however this may </div>> > be possible via Window 7 (LBNL), now.**** > > > > **** <div class="im">> > > > ESP-r can basically take the solar distribution on the surfaces of the > > zone behind the window into account. In the mainstream code, the CFCs lack > > daylighting, however. I am not sure what the situation in this regard for </div>> > the "BRTD"-type of models is.**** > > > > **** <div class="im">> > > > As far as I am aware, the three-phase-method and the "coupling" with > > EnergyPlus requires two runs? Could you describe the necessary workflow / > > calculation steps? Where / in which program is the setting of a Venetian </div>> > type blind set, for example? Based on what?**** > > > > **** > > > > Best**** > > > > Achim**** > > > > **** > > > > **** > > > > **** > > > > *Von:* <a href="mailto:esp-r-bounces@lists.strath.ac.uk">esp-r-bounces@lists.strath.ac.uk</a> [mailto: > > <a href="mailto:esp-r-bounces@lists.strath.ac.uk">esp-r-bounces@lists.strath.ac.uk</a>] *Im Auftrag von *Germ?n Molina Larrain > > *Gesendet:* Dienstag, 7. Mai 2013 01:07 > > *An:* <a href="mailto:esp-r@lists.strath.ac.uk">esp-r@lists.strath.ac.uk</a> > > *Betreff:* [esp-r] Calculation of solar gains through complex shading > > devices**** > > > > **** > > > > Hello, **** > > > > **** <div class="im">> > > > I am German Molina, and I am doing my MSc. on complex shading systems, and > > how to treat them for simulation purposes (Lighting and Solar Heat Gains). > > I do not really use ESPr or any other thermal simulation tools, just </div>> > Radiance for now.**** > > > > **** <div class="im">> > > > Finished my literature review, I realized that one method used for > > lighting (the Three-phase method) might be good to be a good estimator of > > the Solar Heat Gains through complex fenestration systems... later I found > > out that some people did this, and actually nowadays something very > > similar </div>> > can be implemented in EnergyPlus.**** > > > > **** <div class="im">> > > > Long story short, I think (it is waiting for a validation) that I can > > accurately calculate the Solar Heat Gains through virtually any complex > > fenestration system of known BSDF matrices; and not only net solar heat > > gains, but I think I can also say where the solar radiation is going > > (calculate the fraction that goes to the ceiling, to the floor, etc.). How > > difficult would it be to use this output as an input for ESPr? For what I </div>> > understand, ESPr does not handle very well these kind of systems?**** > > > > **** <div class="im">> > > > What I am proposing can be actually reduced to just one phrase: Lets use > > Radiance to what it does best (radiation transport) and ESPr to what I </div>> > think it does best (Thermal simulation).**** > > > > **** > > > > THANKS VERY MUCH**** > > > > **** > > > > German Molina**** > > > > ** ** > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <a href="http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20130507/fb681b46/atta" target="_blank">http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20130507/fb681b46/atta</a> > chment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 13:44:24 +0000 > From: Geissler Achim <<a href="mailto:achim.geissler@fhnw.ch">achim.geissler@fhnw.ch</a>> > Subject: [esp-r] Re: Calculation of solar gains through complex > shading devices > To: Germ?n Molina Larrain <<a href="mailto:gmolina1@uc.cl">gmolina1@uc.cl</a>> > Cc: "<a href="mailto:esp-r@lists.strath.ac.uk">esp-r@lists.strath.ac.uk</a>" <<a href="mailto:esp-r@lists.strath.ac.uk">esp-r@lists.strath.ac.uk</a>> > Message-ID: > <<a href="mailto:BC9FF28A18B2A8499742D2B15D1A323A1709E9C6@MXAMU23.adm.ds.fhnw.ch">BC9FF28A18B2A8499742D2B15D1A323A1709E9C6@MXAMU23.adm.ds.fhnw.ch</a>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Hi Germ?n <div class="im">> > some comments below, inline. > > Best > Achim > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > T <a href="tel:%2B41%2061%20467%2044%2051" value="+41614674451">+41 61 467 44 51</a> > </div>> <a href="mailto:achim.geissler@fhnw.ch">achim.geissler@fhnw.ch</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:achim.geissler@fhnw.ch">achim.geissler@fhnw.ch</a>> > <a href="http://www.fhnw.ch/iebau" target="_blank">www.fhnw.ch/iebau</a><<a href="http://www.fhnw.ch/iebau" target="_blank">http://www.fhnw.ch/iebau</a>> <div class="im">> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Von: <a href="mailto:germolinal@gmail.com">germolinal@gmail.com</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:germolinal@gmail.com">germolinal@gmail.com</a>] Im Auftrag von </div>> Germ?n Molina Larrain Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. Mai 2013 15:33 <div><div class="h5">> An: Geissler Achim > Cc: <a href="mailto:esp-r@lists.strath.ac.uk">esp-r@lists.strath.ac.uk</a> > Betreff: Re: [esp-r] Calculation of solar gains through complex shading > devices > > Hi Achim, > > my original idea of workflow was thought on the basis of a straightforward > finide difference simulation (as I have done in Matlab)... so it would be > to make the solar simulations (calculation of solar gains and Daylight), > and then, to make the thermal simulation; knowing the flows to each node > (calculated before). > > Now, since you say that ESPr supports BSDF input, maybe the whole thermal > simulation should be done in ESPr, leaving Radiance just for lighting. I > have been working on the generation of the BSDFs, and I think the problem > is practically solved right now, using tools that already exist (I expect I > can publish something related to this). How long do those (BSDFed) > simulations take? I have heard that in E+ they take considerably more time > than the other ones. > > I'm afraid I can't tell you, as I have never personally used that particular > feature of ESP-r. Also, I am not sure if the format is any "general" BSDF > type. How do you generate your BSDFs? > > As far as I am aware, the three-phase-method and the "coupling" with > EnergyPlus requires two runs? Could you describe the necessary workflow / > calculation steps? Where / in which program is the setting of a Venetian > type blind set, for example? Based on what? > > The direct coupling, I was informed, is complicated. But, just as in ESPr, > E+ was provided with the capability of using BSDF information in a very > similar way as the Three-phase method does. So everything is actually made > on E+. > > > Anyway, I guess the best should be to make the lighting simulation, > calculate the electric lighting consumption and transform it into internal > gains for a posterior ESPr simulation, considering BSDFs? Please feel free > to comment. > > Well, basically ESP-r and Radiance can be used fully coupled. I.e., if you > want to have lighting control, you can couple a Radiance model, let that do > the lighting calculations and give back which percentage of the pre-set set > point are covered by daylight - ESP-r will then add the rest as electric > internal gain based on the defined electric light installation. The gain > due to daylight is taken into account by the solar gain. This can also be > used with the CFCs - there is an experimental feature which generates the > Radiance Model with a Venetian type blind during run-time with the slat > angle as given by solar needs (e.g. "cut off" control). Computing times > are, of course, somewhat longer than usual. > > > THANKS VERY MUCH > > German > > 2013/5/7 Geissler Achim </div></div>> <<a href="mailto:achim.geissler@fhnw.ch">achim.geissler@fhnw.ch</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:achim.geissler@fhnw.ch">achim.geissler@fhnw.ch</a>>> Dear German <div class="im">> > basically, that is a very interesting idea. However, I would not expect this > to be easy and straightforward, as one strength of ESP-r is that it solves > all the physics simultaneously. Currently, there are two possible ways to > include complex shading: The "CFC" model for multi-layer constructions (to > date, this covers venetian type blinds, roller blinds and meshes are "in > the works" as far as I am aware) and the input of bi-directional > reflection / transmission input data ("BRTD") - here the problem is > basically generating the necessary input data, however this may be possible > via Window 7 (LBNL), now. > > ESP-r can basically take the solar distribution on the surfaces of the zone > behind the window into account. In the mainstream code, the CFCs lack > daylighting, however. I am not sure what the situation in this regard for > the "BRTD"-type of models is. > > As far as I am aware, the three-phase-method and the "coupling" with > EnergyPlus requires two runs? Could you describe the necessary workflow / > calculation steps? Where / in which program is the setting of a Venetian > type blind set, for example? Based on what? > > Best > Achim > > > </div>> Von: <a href="mailto:esp-r-bounces@lists.strath.ac.uk">esp-r-bounces@lists.strath.ac.uk</a><<a href="http://ath.ac.uk" target="_blank">http://ath.ac.uk</a>> > [mailto:<a href="mailto:esp-r-bounces@lists.strath.ac.uk">esp-r-bounces@lists.strath.ac.uk</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:esp-r-bounces@lists.strath">esp-r-bounces@lists.strath</a>. > <a href="http://ac.uk" target="_blank">ac.uk</a>>] Im Auftrag von Germ?n Molina Larrain Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. Mai 2013 > 01:07 > An: <a href="mailto:esp-r@lists.strath.ac.uk">esp-r@lists.strath.ac.uk</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:esp-r@lists.strath.ac.uk">esp-r@lists.strath.ac.uk</a>> <div class="im">> Betreff: [esp-r] Calculation of solar gains through complex shading devices > > Hello, > > I am German Molina, and I am doing my MSc. on complex shading systems, and > how to treat them for simulation purposes (Lighting and Solar Heat Gains). > I do not really use ESPr or any other thermal simulation tools, just > Radiance for now. > > Finished my literature review, I realized that one method used for lighting > (the Three-phase method) might be good to be a good estimator of the Solar > Heat Gains through complex fenestration systems... later I found out that > some people did this, and actually nowadays something very similar can be > implemented in EnergyPlus. > > Long story short, I think (it is waiting for a validation) that I can > accurately calculate the Solar Heat Gains through virtually any complex > fenestration system of known BSDF matrices; and not only net solar heat > gains, but I think I can also say where the solar radiation is going > (calculate the fraction that goes to the ceiling, to the floor, etc.). How > difficult would it be to use this output as an input for ESPr? For what I > understand, ESPr does not handle very well these kind of systems? > > What I am proposing can be actually reduced to just one phrase: Lets use > Radiance to what it does best (radiation transport) and ESPr to what I > think it does best (Thermal simulation). > > THANKS VERY MUCH > > German Molina > </div>> -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <a href="http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20130507/5773ecb1/atta" target="_blank">http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20130507/5773ecb1/atta</a> > chment.html > > ------------------------------ <div class="im">> > _______________________________________________ > esp-r mailing list > <a href="mailto:esp-r@lists.strath.ac.uk">esp-r@lists.strath.ac.uk</a> > <a href="http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r" target="_blank">http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r</a> > </div>> End of esp-r Digest, Vol 82, Issue 4 > ************************************ -- _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ |Marco Manzan Email: <a href="mailto:manzan@units.it">manzan@units.it</a> | |Tel: <a href="tel:%28%2B39%29%20040%205583506" value="+390405583506">(+39) 040 5583506</a> Fax : <a href="tel:%28%2B39%29%20040%20%20572033" value="+39040572033">(+39) 040 572033</a> | |Dipartimento di Ingegneria e Architettura | |Universita' degli Studi di Trieste | |piazzale Europa 1, 34127 TRIESTE | |_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _| <div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"> _______________________________________________ esp-r mailing list <a href="mailto:esp-r@lists.strath.ac.uk">esp-r@lists.strath.ac.uk</a> <a href="http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r" target="_blank">http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r</a> </div></div></blockquote></div> </div>