[esp-r] Re: Simulating UFH vs radiators

[Achim Geissler]

Hi Bob

thanks for the more detailed information (and sorry for my  
directness ... I assume, however, that more than half the people on  
the list are non-native speakers of English - that would be an  
interesting statistic, how the list is growing / where the members  
come from).

As Aizaz wrote, there are exemplars with radiators and UFH systems.  
However, these components are "Plant" - the learning curve for plants  
is steeper than for the "simple" zones IMO (not to speak of the  
combination of both which would of course be desirable). But if the  
existing exemplars are already close to what you want, small changes  
should not be too difficult.

You could also model the systems as "zones only" - ESP-r is flexible  
enough for that. The underfloor heating would be a thin zone under the  
"main" zone of interest controlled to the temperature desired (this  
would lack a temperature difference between inlet and outlet, of  
course - at least in the "one zone" approach). The radiator could also  
be modeled as a zone or possibly a hanging surface (not sure if / how  
one can control the temperature then, though.

So, as originally stated, yes, ESP-r can model what you need. But  
depending on approach, not "without effort".

Best regards
Achim



On Aug 21, 2009, at 10:39 AM, Bob Irving wrote:

> I'm sorry, my original message did rather assume a British
> background.....
>
> For UFH, I mean "underfloor heating" - distribution of heat by water
> running in pipes immediately below the floor surface.
> By radiators, I mean the large flat metal things attached to walls
> which have water running through them to distribute heat.
>
> The theory says that underfloor heating can use lower temperatures
> because of the larger area and is therefore more suitable for heat
> pump heating systems.
> Radiator systems are suppose to need higher temperatures because of
> their smaller area.
> However, the occupants of the houses, where I am monitoring heat
> pumps, find the temperatures OK though the output temperatures from
> the heat pumps are not that high.
>
> I would like to explore through simulation what's going on.
>
> IES VE does not appear to allow you to specify different heat
> distribution systems. I don't think it allows you to specify the
> maximum temperature for distribution.
>
> I hope that this clearer!
>
> 	Bob Irving
>
> On 21 Aug 2009, at 09:12, Achim Geissler wrote:
>
>> Dear Bob
>>
>> not being attached to the originators of the program, maybe it is
>> for me to
>> say: ESP-r can do practically anything. However, "not too much
>> effort" can
>> only be expected for the "usual" things.
>>
>> I understand only half of what you want to do (the abbreviations
>> are a bit
>> terse for a "non-native english speaker"), but ESP-r has many
>> possibilities
>> in regard to modeling long wave radiation (I assume you mean with
>> "radiators").
>>
>> So, maybe explain what aspects IES can't cover, give more detail in
>> regard
>> to where you see simulation-wise problems and maybe simply try it
>> out - it's
>> readily available, after all. Probably, ESP-r can do it. But not
>> necessarily
>> without (too much) effort.
>>
>> Achim
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk
>> [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Bob Irving
>> Sent: Donnerstag, 20. August 2009 15:45
>> To: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk
>> Subject: [esp-r] Simulating UFH vs radiators
>>
>> Dear list,
>> I'd like to run some simulations comparing the effects of using
>> radiators at lower temperatures with UFH, viz. trying to see how
>> oversized rads at what temperatures have to be to deliver the same
>> level of warmth as UFH. I have done some monitoring of heat pumps
>> retro-fitted in houses with rads where the output temperatures from
>> the hps are nowhere near as high as should be expected, yet the  
>> houses
>> are adequately warm......
>>
>> I am reasonable well up on IES VE, which I don't think can do this
>> simulation, so can ESP-R (preferably without too much effort)???
>>
>> TIA
>> Bob Irving
>> PhD researcher
>> Oxford Inst of Sustainable Development
>> Oxford Brookes University
>>
>> 01865 484201
>> 01285 650281
>>
>>
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achim.geissler at intergga.ch