<HTML><BODY>Hi Camilo<br /><br />interesting point. I do not quite understand what you mean by "effectively replace on part of the exposed wall with another", though.<br /><br />A hanging surface will influence the long wave radiation ("block"). Good practice would entail splitting the surrounding surfaces into smaller surfaces to get good results in detailed view-factor based radiation calculation (which, of course, must be done with such surfaces). The convection will surely be a bit high, I agree, as this will be based on the single zone node temperature.<br /><br />Good to have a discussion here!<br /><br />Best<br />Achim<br /><br />--------- Original-Nachricht --------<br /> Von: "Diaz, Camilo" <Camilo.Diaz@WSPGroup.com><br /> An: "Achim Geissler" <achim.geissler@intergga.ch>, "leen peeters" <l.f.r.peeters@gmail.com><br /> Cc: esp-r@lists.strath.ac.uk<br /> Betreff: [esp-r] Re: furniture in esp-r<br />! Datum: 24/05/11 10:12<br /> <br /> <div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Century Gothic","sans-serif"; color: black">The problem with “hanging surfaces” is that you effectively replace one part of the exposed wall with another material. In reality a sofa or a book shelf against the wall blocks the radiation component but the convective component it still active the heat will spread throughout the whole wall according to its thermal diffusivity. Depending on the focus of the study the hanging surface approach can work but you! may lose some of the mass effects…</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Century Gothic","sans-serif"; color: black"> </span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Century Gothic","sans-serif"; color: #404040">Camilo </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Century Gothic","sans-serif"; color: #404040"></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Century Gothic","sans-serif"; color: #548dd4">0207 314 4447 </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Century Gothic","sans-serif"; color: #548dd4">07713 985 845</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: #548dd4"></span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Century Gothic","sans-serif"; color: black"> </span></p><div><div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color: #b5c4df -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm"><p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></strong><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif""> esp-r-bounces@lists.strath.ac.uk [mailto:esp-r-bounces@lists.strath.ac.uk] <strong>On Behalf Of </strong>Achim Geissler<br /><strong>Sent:</strong> 23 May 2011 20:14<br /><strong>To:</strong> leen peeters<br /><strong>Cc:</strong> esp-r@lists.strath.ac.uk<br /><strong>Subject:</strong> [esp-r] Re: furniture in esp-r</span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal">Hi Leen</p><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">of course, you could model the furniture as small zones in a ! large one (with the floor of the furniture connecting to the floor of the large zone) ... this would lead to quite a complex "main zone", though.</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Yes, hanging surfaces can be set up with the normal attributes as any other surface, so the adaptive convection should not be a problem.</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Best</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Achim</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">On May 23, 2011, at 8:43 PM, leen peeters wrote:</p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><br /><br /></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">Hi Achim,</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">we planned to do some experiments to see how things should be taken into account, what the influence is on all modes of heat transfer ! for a range of potential settings. </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">It seemed usefull to first check how popular building simulation codes handle the issue.</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">So, I will take the explanation below and I assume it can be coupled to the adaptive convection algorithm. </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">What I mean by loading and unloading is that the volume, representing the furniture, has to take part in convection and radiation (and potentially some conduction) in order to exchange heat and thus influence its thermal state. </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p style="margin-bottom: 12pt" class="MsoNormal">Leen</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 8:36 PM, Achim Geissler <<a href="mailto:achim.geissler@intergga.ch">achim.geissler@intergga.ch</a>> wrote:</p><p class="MsoNormal">Dear Leen<br /><br />possibly you want to use "hanging surfaces". I a! m not sure what you mean by "charging and discharging" other than thermal capacity, but such hanging surfaces have all the same properties as normal zone bounding surfaces.<br /><br />"Furniture against the wall" is a difficult one. As a first thought, you can "cut the appropriate surface into the wall" and then give this surface a different construction which has an additional layer and thermal resistance on the interior. I assume you would like to have reduced surface temperatures in the region of the furniture?<br /><br />However, often problems arise when thermal bridging (internal walls meet external walls, floors meet external walls and such) and furniture "collide". For this, you would need an (at least) 2d calculation, I would say. ESP-r has such a module, however, I do not know if it is still "active".<br /><br />For what its worth.<br /><br />Best<br />Achim</p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><br /><br />On May 23, 2011, a! t 8:23 PM, leen peeters wrote:<br /><br />> Dear all,<br />><br />> what is the best way of modelling the effect of furniture in ESP-r? I mean not only the thermal capacity, but the charging and discharging of it and the potential effect of furniture that is located against a wall.<br />><br />> Thanks already,<br />><br />> Leen</p></div></div><p style="margin-bottom: 12pt" class="MsoNormal">> _______________________________________________<br />> esp-r mailing list<br />> <a href="mailto:esp-r@lists.strath.ac.uk">esp-r@lists.strath.ac.uk</a><br />> <a href="http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r" target="_blank">http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r</a><br /><span style="color: #888888"><br /><a href="mailto:achim.geissler@intergga.ch">achim.geissler@intergga.ch</a><br /><br /><br /><br /></span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: ! 9pt; font-family: "Helvetica","sans-serif"; color: black"><a href="mailto:achim.geissler@intergga.ch">achim.geissler@intergga.ch</a></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: "Helvetica","sans-serif"; color: black"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: "Helvetica","sans-serif"; color: black"> </span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div></div><br /> <br /> <hr /> <br /> _______________________________________________<br /> esp-r mailing list<br /> <a href="mailto:esp-r@lists.strath.ac.uk" class="autolink">esp-r@lists.strath.ac.uk</a><br /> <a href="http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r" target="_blank" class="autolink">http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r</a></BODY></HTML>