<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"><meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 14 (filtered medium)"><style></style></head><body lang=EN-GB link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black'>Hi Achim - if your hanging surface is an additional element to the wall behind i.e. with an air gap between surfaces then this would resolve my point below, can you do that in esp? if so I think you approach is spot on…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:#404040'>Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:#404040'>Camilo </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:#404040'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:#548DD4'>0207 314 4447 <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:#548DD4'>07713 985 845</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#548DD4'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Achim.geissler [mailto:achim.geissler@intergga.ch] <br><b>Sent:</b> 24 May 2011 11:11<br><b>To:</b> Diaz, Camilo; AchimGeissler; leenpeeters<br><b>Cc:</b> esp-r@lists.strath.ac.uk<br><b>Subject:</b> AW: [esp-r] Re: furniture in esp-r<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Hi Camilo<br><br>interesting point. I do not quite understand what you mean by "effectively replace on part of the exposed wall with another", though.<br><br>A hanging surface will influence the long wave radiation ("block"). Good practice would entail splitting the surrounding surfaces into smaller surfaces to get good results in detailed view-factor based radiation calculation (which, of course, must be done with such surfaces). The convection will surely be a bit high, I agree, as this will be based on the single zone node temperature.<br><br>Good to have a discussion here!<br><br>Best<br>Achim<br><br>--------- Original-Nachricht --------<br>Von: "Diaz, Camilo" <Camilo.Diaz@WSPGroup.com><br>An: "Achim Geissler" <achim.geissler@intergga.ch>, "leen peeters" <l.f.r.peeters@gmail.com><br>Cc: esp-r@lists.strath.ac.uk<br>Betreff: [esp-r] Re: furniture in esp-r<br>! Datum: 24/05/11 10:12<br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black'>The problem with “hanging surfaces” is that you effectively replace one part of the exposed wall with another material. In reality a sofa or a book shelf against the wall blocks the radiation component but the convective component it still active the heat will spread throughout the whole wall according to its thermal diffusivity. Depending on the focus of the study the hanging surface approach can work but you! may lose some of the mass effects…</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:#404040'>Camilo </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:#548DD4'>0207 314 4447 </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:#548DD4'>07713 985 845</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm;border-color:-moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><strong><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></strong><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> esp-r-bounces@lists.strath.ac.uk [mailto:esp-r-bounces@lists.strath.ac.uk] <strong><span style='font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>On Behalf Of </span></strong>Achim Geissler<br><strong><span style='font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Sent:</span></strong> 23 May 2011 20:14<br><strong><span style='font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>To:</span></strong> leen peeters<br><strong><span style='font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Cc:</span></strong> esp-r@lists.strath.ac.uk<br><strong><span style='font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Subject:</span></strong> [esp-r] Re: furniture in esp-r</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Hi Leen<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>of course, you could model the furniture as small zones in a ! large one (with the floor of the furniture connecting to the floor of the large zone) ... this would lead to quite a complex "main zone", though.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Yes, hanging surfaces can be set up with the normal attributes as any other surface, so the adaptive convection should not be a problem.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Best<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Achim<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On May 23, 2011, at 8:43 PM, leen peeters wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Hi Achim,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>we planned to do some experiments to see how things should be taken into account, what the influence is on all modes of heat transfer ! for a range of potential settings. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>It seemed usefull to first check how popular building simulation codes handle the issue.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>So, I will take the explanation below and I assume it can be coupled to the adaptive convection algorithm. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>What I mean by loading and unloading is that the volume, representing the furniture, has to take part in convection and radiation (and potentially some conduction) in order to exchange heat and thus influence its thermal state. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Leen<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 8:36 PM, Achim Geissler <<a href="mailto:achim.geissler@intergga.ch">achim.geissler@intergga.ch</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Dear Leen<br><br>possibly you want to use "hanging surfaces". I a! m not sure what you mean by "charging and discharging" other than thermal capacity, but such hanging surfaces have all the same properties as normal zone bounding surfaces.<br><br>"Furniture against the wall" is a difficult one. As a first thought, you can "cut the appropriate surface into the wall" and then give this surface a different construction which has an additional layer and thermal resistance on the interior. I assume you would like to have reduced surface temperatures in the region of the furniture?<br><br>However, often problems arise when thermal bridging (internal walls meet external walls, floors meet external walls and such) and furniture "collide". For this, you would need an (at least) 2d calculation, I would say. ESP-r has such a module, however, I do not know if it is still "active".<br><br>For what its worth.<br><br>Best<br>Achim<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><br><br>On May 23, 2011, a! t 8:23 PM, leen peeters wrote:<br><br>> Dear all,<br>><br>> what is the best way of modelling the effect of furniture in ESP-r? I mean not only the thermal capacity, but the charging and discharging of it and the potential effect of furniture that is located against a wall.<br>><br>> Thanks already,<br>><br>> Leen<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'>> _______________________________________________<br>> esp-r mailing list<br>> <a href="mailto:esp-r@lists.strath.ac.uk">esp-r@lists.strath.ac.uk</a><br>> <a href="http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r" target="_blank">http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r</a><br><span style='color:#888888'><br><a href="mailto:achim.geissler@intergga.ch">achim.geissler@intergga.ch</a><br><br><br></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><a href="mailto:achim.geissler@intergga.ch">achim.geissler@intergga.ch</a></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></div><p class=MsoNormal><br>_______________________________________________<br>esp-r mailing list<br><a href="mailto:esp-r@lists.strath.ac.uk">esp-r@lists.strath.ac.uk</a><br><a href="http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r" target="_blank">http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>