<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Hi Francesco<div><br></div><div>actually, I don't know off-hand how the CFC treats diffuse radiation (but the information is surely given in Bart's thesis). How does the bi-directional model do that? The "traditional" TMC uses the 55°-value, as far as I remember. The advantage of the CFC is that a venetian type blind in a system is calculated "on the run" - so you can have a cut-off control, for example and do not need to define any number of settings before-hand. The dis-advantage is that you can model only "simple" venetian type blinds, noting fancy like the whats-it-called in the paper you referred to. Also, you cannot link in a "double facade CFC" in an air flow network. Would that work with the bi-directional approach?</div><div><br></div><div>Calculating the bi-directional data with WIS or Window-6: Do you use the angular date symmetrically? Because both programs only give results for one angle, not really for a field of two angles, don't they?</div><div><br></div><div>Best</div><div>Achim</div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On Oct 9, 2010, at 8:55 PM, Francesco Frontini wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">Hi Achim,<br>
you are right you need to pre-calculate (using window-6 or WIS for ex.) or to measure the complex glazing systems.<br>I would like to compare the bidirectional model with the CFC model (for a simple venetian blind case), but I still had not time for that :(<br>
How the CFC model treats the diffuse irradiation?<br>Best<br><br>Francesco<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">2010/10/9 Achim Geissler <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:achim.geissler@intergga.ch">achim.geissler@intergga.ch</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word;">Hi Francesco<div><br></div><div>did I miss out on something here? I seem to remember that you need quite detailed bidirectional data of your facade / blind to use this, no?</div>
<div><br></div><div>What are the advantages over CFCs (if you do not need detailed (measured) data)?</div><div><br></div><div>Best</div><div>Achim</div><div><div></div><div class="h5"><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On Oct 8, 2010, at 6:51 PM, Francesco Frontini wrote:</div>
<br><blockquote type="cite">Dear Dimitris,<br>if you want to model different blind positions you can use the bidirectional model we implemented two years ago in ESP-r under "advanced optics".<br>You can find more information about the bidirectional model (we call it Black Box Model) in the proceedings of the BS conference 2009 in Glasgow. Here the link: <br>
<br><a href="http://www.ibpsa.org/proceedings/BS2009/BS09_0928_935.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.ibpsa.org/proceedings/BS2009/BS09_0928_935.pdf</a><br><br>The idea is to model the whole system (glass + blind) as a double glaze unit with the effective direct tau and g-value.<br>
As the normal TMC control you can use as set point the incident radiation on the glass and the indoor temperature to change between 6 blind positions.<br>But as I said you can find further information in the papers.<br>For sure you can also ask me for specific problems.<br>
<br>Hope to help you somehow, best regards<br><br>Francesco<br><br>Dr. Francesco Frontini, MEng PhD in Buildings Engineering<br><br>----------------------------------------<br>Fraunhofer Institut für Solare Energiesysteme ISE<br>
Heidenhofstr. 2, 79110 Freiburg, Germany<br><br>M1: [+39] 333-3097826<br>M2: [+49] (0)1522-1624691<br><br>Phone: [+49] (0)7614588-5358 <br>FAX: [+49] (0)7614588-9358<br><br>@1: <a href="mailto:francesco.frontini@ise.fraunhofer.de" target="_blank">francesco.frontini@ise.fraunhofer.de</a><br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
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1. Re: Blind / Shutter Controls etc. (Achim Geissler)<br>
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Message: 1<br>
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 19:06:38 +0200<br>
From: Achim Geissler <<a href="mailto:achim.geissler@intergga.ch" target="_blank">achim.geissler@intergga.ch</a>><br>
Subject: [esp-r] Re: Blind / Shutter Controls etc.<br>
To: Dimitris Mantas <<a href="mailto:lmd26@tee.gr" target="_blank">lmd26@tee.gr</a>><br>
Cc: <a href="mailto:esp-r@lists.strath.ac.uk" target="_blank">esp-r@lists.strath.ac.uk</a><br>
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Hi Dimitris<br>
<br>
for the switching of TMC type "windows" you do not use the "optics control". You need to go in the menu "construction materials", choose the zone of interest and then choose "transparent layer properties". Then you are confronted with the choices you probably remember. The setup is not part of the .ctl file but part of the .tmc file.<br>
<br>
Best<br>
Achim<br>
<br>
<br>
On Oct 7, 2010, at 5:18 PM, Dimitris Mantas wrote:<br>
<br>
> Hi All,<br>
><br>
> I 'am trying to locate where I can impose blind/shutter controls.<br>
> (e.g switching the optics of windows when radiation, temp or other is above a value).<br>
><br>
> I 've tried the optics controls but can't figure out what data to input.<br>
><br>
> First, I put a sensor, sensoring radiation on a surface but the program reports back it's going to sense db temp (instead of radiation) on that surface.<br>
> Then the actuator is set to actuate the values for the construction chosen (e.g. double, low e glaz.), however I am not asked what the switched values should be<br>
> (as it was done in previous esp-r versions).<br>
> In in the third menu (period) can't really understand what kind of input is required by the program<br>
> (bidirectional ?? and values such as -30, 1 etc.).<br>
><br>
> Could you please give me a hint of what to do ?<br>
><br>
> I suppose same querries may emerge for the case of lighting controls etc.<br>
><br>
> Searched the cookbook but couldn't find my answers.<br>
><br>
> thanx in advance,<br>
><br>
> Dimitris<br>
><br>
><br>
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</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Dr. Francesco Frontini, MEng PhD in Buildings Engineering<br><br>----------------------------------------<br>Fraunhofer Institut für Solare Energiesysteme ISE<br>Heidenhofstr. 2, 79110 Freiburg, Germany<br>
<br>M1: [+39] 333-3097826<br>M2: [+49] (0)1522-1624691<br><br>Phone: [+49] (0)7614588-5358 <br>FAX: [+49] (0)7614588-9358<br><br>@1: <a href="mailto:francesco.frontini@ise.fraunhofer.de" target="_blank">francesco.frontini@ise.fraunhofer.de</a><br>
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<br></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Dr. Francesco Frontini, MEng PhD in Buildings Engineering<br><br>----------------------------------------<br>Fraunhofer Institut für Solare Energiesysteme ISE<br>
Heidenhofstr. 2, 79110 Freiburg, Germany<br><br>M1: [+39] 333-3097826<br>M2: [+49] (0)1522-1624691<br><br>Phone: [+49] (0)7614588-5358 <br>FAX: [+49] (0)7614588-9358<br><br>@1: <a href="mailto:francesco.frontini@ise.fraunhofer.de">francesco.frontini@ise.fraunhofer.de</a><br>
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