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<p class=MsoPlainText>Dear Marco<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US>thank you for the information. That is
how I also understand the climate data is generated (actually, for Germany, it
is usually a mix of measurements over many years and some “statistically
generated” data). But, air temperatures etc. then also do not take any
buildings (or cities, dens construction sites etc.) into account. So we have
the same issue here.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US>I would assume that any model using
ground temperatures should in some way take this into account. The data can
only be for “uninfluenced ground”, because the data cannot (should
not) include any building influence as this will depend on how deep the
building reaches and how well it is thermally insulated from the ground (among
other things).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US>The “stat” file says “do
not use for ‘GroundTemperatures object’” but also says <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US> - The
temperatures for 0.5 m depth can be used for GroundTemperatures:Surface.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US> - The
temperatures for 4.0 m depth can be used for GroundTemperatures:Deep.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US>which seems to refer to a specific
calculation model / procedure.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US>Just my 5 cents …<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US>Best regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US>Achim<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Marco Manzan [mailto:manzan@units.it] <br>
Sent: Mittwoch, 30. September 2009 09:06<br>
To: Achim Geissler<br>
Subject: Re: [esp-r] Re: Underground temperature?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US>I know as the climatic data for italian
sites, that form the IGDG database, <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>have been collected. The data is obtained averaging over
a period of about 20 <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>years air force measurements on airfields on a number of
sites. I think <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>ground temperatures are obtained using a conduction model
for the soil and <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>are not measured. The conduction model clearly does not
take into account the <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>presence of buildings, so the obtained temperatures are
valid only for free <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>field problems, perhaps they can be used to assess the
risk of freezing for <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>underground piping.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>An alternative method for dealing with basement losses is
to use the method <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>included in ANNEX D of standard ISO EN 13770.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Furthermore I know that esp-r can deal with basement
losses solving a 3d <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>control volume for the ground, I never used it and I
think it is among <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>the "hidden" and undocumented features of
esp-r.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
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