<html> <head> <meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 11 (filtered)"> <style>  </style> </head> <body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=blue> <div class=Section1> Hi Gunter,   thanks for the angle clarifications (the term “cut off” is quite widely accepted with the definition you gave, I think. However, we do use “solar altitude” for the “projected angle”, usually … is there any significant difference? I couldn’t find what difference you see, from the sketch). However, I totally agree that explicit treatment of all angles would simplify any discussions. It would probably be quite a bit clear(er), what is assumed for the calcs.   What you write about DIN V 18599 is interesting. Do you have any information on other countries in this regard? I have heard of ideas to have an “accepted EPBD” calculation tool for Europe … for my understanding of the EPBD and the freedom of individual countries in its implementation, this is not really possible, is it? It would be interesting, of course. <div>   Mit freundlichen Grüssen / Best regards   Achim Geissler </div> <div style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt'> <div> <div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'> <hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1> </div> From: esp-r-bounces@lists.strath.ac.uk [mailto:esp-r-bounces@lists.strath.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Pueltz, Gunter Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 10:23 AM To: Geissler Achim Cc: esp-r@lists.strath.ac.uk; Bart Lomanowski Subject: [esp-r] Re: Proposed development of window shading models - e mail 2 </div>   <div> 2) Defintion of "profile angle e": The profile angle e is defined as the projection of sun heigt angle a into a vertical plain, which is normal to the facade (see attached picture). </div> <div>   </div> <div> Thus the profile angle can be interpreted as "sun heigt angle" if the sun </div> <div> azimuth angle j is not taken into account (e.g. for WIS-results or also </div> <div> in ESP-r, optical database). </div> <div>   </div> <div> Again I propose an enhanced window model for ESP-r, which takes into </div> <div> account ALL relevant angles (see attachment): </div> <div> - blinde sloüpe angle </div> <div> - sun real heigt angle a or alternatively sun height´s profile angle e </div> <div> - sun azimuth angle j </div> <div>   Concerning the official EPBD-oriented planning / calculation tool in Germany, called DIN V 18599, I can tell you following: </div> <div> The DIN V 18599, part 2, defines a so called effectivce g-value, which MUST be </div> <div> calculated according to EN 13363, part 1 (simplified) or part 2 (detailled and spectral, </div> <div> but only for ONE angle of 45 degree). </div> <div> The more sophisticated algorithm of ISO 15099 (implented in WIS) is NOT allowed ....... </div> <div> So it is clear, that all the angle dependancies described above are not valid for the </div> <div> stupid German DIN V 18599 ...... </div> <div> Best regards, Gunter -- Dr. Gunter Pültz Müller-BBM GmbH Robert-Koch-Straße 11 82152 Planegg Telefon +49(89)85602-336 Telefax +49(89)85602-111 <a href="http://www.muellerbbm.de/" target="_blank">http://www.MuellerBBM.de</a>    HRB München 86143 Geschäftsführer: Bernd Grözinger, Dr. Edwin Schorer, Norbert Suritsch > -----Original Message----- > From: Geissler Achim [<a href="mailto:Achim.Geissler@josef-gartner.ch">mailto:Achim.Geissler@josef-gartner.ch</a>] > Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 9:44 AM > To: Pueltz, Gunter; esp-r@lists.strath.ac.uk > Cc: Bart Lomanowski > Subject: RE: [esp-r] Re: Proposed development of window shading models > > > Hi Gunter, > good point on azimuth angle (if it was not already being > focused on). However, what WIS actually models in regard to > angle dependany is not so clear to me. >       - cut off by Venetian type blinds is definitely modelled. >       - other than that, comparison calculations seem to > imply that all the angle dependant results are simply > calculated by the Fresnel equation. >       - The paper on "new model" for Venetian type blinds: > The blinds considered are, of course, relatively special > cases. It would be interesting to see differences for more > "standard" types of Venetian blinds. Additionally, I do not > understand why "0°" and "cut-off" gives the same discrepancy. > Anyway, for typical control scenarios "blind down and closed > if sun", I assume the simple models do O.K. for most cases. > Enhancing the model capabilities of ESP-r in this regard is > very interesting for us, in any case! However, an interesting > question (at least here in Europe) will be: How do results / > performance parameters gained with enhanced models fit in > with the EPBD-oriented planning / calculation tools (for > Germany e.g. DIN 18599)? > > Mit freundlichen Grüssen / Best regards >  > Achim Geissler > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: esp-r-bounces@lists.strath.ac.uk [<a href="mailto:esp-r-">mailto:esp-r-</a> > > bounces@lists.strath.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Pueltz, Gunter > > Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 8:30 AM > > To: esp-r@lists.strath.ac.uk > > Cc: 'Bart Lomanowski' > > Subject: [esp-r] Re: Proposed development of window shading models > > > > Bart, > > > > a short info concerning transmission and absorption of each > layer of a > > tmc: > > > > The European software "Advanced Window Information System (WIS)", > > Version 3.0.1, des Window Energy Data Network (WinDat), coordinated > > by TNO Building and Construction Research (TNO Bouw), Department: > > Sustainable Energy and Buildings (DEG), The Netherlands (details > > see <a href="http://windat.ucd.ie/wis/html/index.html" target="_blank">http://windat.ucd.ie/wis/html/index.html</a>) > > > > is able to calculate both the overall transmission as well as the > > absorption > > in each layer of a facade WITH venetian blinds as a function of sun > > altitude > > angle (this is the "profile angle" you suggested). The WIS > software is > > similar > > to the WINDOW-software from LBNL, but also treats venetian blinds. > > Therefore you should use the software WIS for the enhanced > window model in > > ESP-r ... > > An interface between WIS and ESP-r would be a great help > for ESP-users !! > > > > But also WIS shows a crued defect: It is NOT able to take > the azimuth > > angle > > of > > the sun into account. A recent work from Mr. Kuhn, > Fraunhofer-Institute of > > solar > > energy systems in Freiburg, Germany, has shown, that this > defect may yield > > - > > at critical > > sun angles - to an underestimation of solar heat gain of appr. > > 100% !!!!!!! > > Therefore it would be the best - for my opinion -, if the > new enhanced > > facade model > > (glazing AND blinds) takes into account ALL relevant angles: > > - the slope angle of the blinds > > - the sun heigt angle (or the profile angle) > > - the sun azimuth angle > > Concerning this topic, Mr. Kuhn has developed a new, > enhanced algorithm (I > > assume > > based on raytracing), which considers all these angles. Please see > > > > 1) Tilmann E Kuhn, Solar Control: A general evaluation > method for facades > > with venetian blinds or other solar control systems, Energy and > > Buildings, 38 (2006), 648-660. > > > > 2) Tilmann E Kuhn, Solar Control: Comparison of two new > systems with the > > state-of-the-art on the basis of a new general evaluation method for > > facades with venetian blinds or other solar control > systems, Energy and > > Buildings, 38 (2006), 661-672. > > > > You can also find more information about this new algorithm at the > > IBPSA-Germany > > website at <a href="http://129.187.44.165/konferenz/paper/2006/108.pdf" target="_blank">MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "129.187.44.165" claiming to be MailScanner warning: numerical links are often malicious: http://129.187.44.165/konferenz/paper/2006/108.pdf</a> > > > > I propose that you contact Mr. Kuhn directly, because he > has already told > > his > > willingness to support or even participate the code > enhancement of ESP-r. > > His contact data are following: > > > > Dipl.-Phys. Tilmann E. Kuhn > > Head of Group Solar Facades and Durability Analysis > > Dept. Thermal Systems and Buildings > > Fraunhofer Institut für Solare Energiesysteme ISE > > Heidenhofstr. 2, 79110 Freiburg, Germany > > Phone: +49 (0) 761/ 4588-5297  Fax: +49 (0)761/ 4588-9297 > > tilmann.kuhn@ise.fraunhofer.de > > <a href="http://www.ise.fraunhofer.de" target="_blank">http://www.ise.fraunhofer.de</a> > > > > As a stupid ESP user I would appreciate it greatly if all > experts for > > facade > > modelling > > cooperate for the enhancement of facade modelling in ESP-r  .... > > > > Regards, > > Gunter > > > > -- > > Dr. Gunter Pültz > > > > Müller-BBM GmbH > > Robert-Koch-Straße 11 > > 82152 Planegg > > Telefon +49(89)85602-336 > > Telefax +49(89)85602-111 > > <a href="http://www.MuellerBBM.de" target="_blank">http://www.MuellerBBM.de</a> > > > > HRB München 86143 > > Geschäftsführer: Bernd Grözinger, Dr. Edwin Schorer, > Norbert Suritsch > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: esp-r-bounces@lists.strath.ac.uk > > > [<a href="mailto:esp-r-bounces@lists.strath.ac.uk">mailto:esp-r-bounces@lists.strath.ac.uk</a>]On Behalf Of > Bart Lomanowski > > > Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 3:45 PM > > > To: esp-r@lists.strath.ac.uk > > > Subject: [esp-r] Re: Proposed development of window shading models > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for all the feedback, I appreciate the interest this > > > subject has > > > generated. > > > > > > I've attached some ppt slides outlining in more detail our > > > model capabilities, > > > the ESP-r development proposal in broad strokes, and some > > > implementation issues > > > for discussion. What I am most interested in is the > > > capabilities of other > > > ongoing developments (e.g., SHOCC) and the expected > > > interactions of these > > > facilities with transparent constructions. Ideally I would > > > like to retain > > > generality with respect to the window shading > developments to ensure > > > functionality with other windows related projects. I hope a > > > brief discussion > > > will be possible at the Developer's conference to shed some > > > light on this. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Bart Lomanowski > > > University of Waterloo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > esp-r mailing list > > esp-r@lists.strath.ac.uk > > <a href="http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r" target="_blank">http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r</a> > </div> </div> </div> </body> </html>