[esp-r] Re: Proposed development of window shading models - e mail2

Tue Mar 20 12:04:54 GMT 2007

Hi Gunter,

thank you for the overview! Very interesting!!

Two comments on my part:

(1)     Some years ago, I was involved with some standardization work in Germany (some DINs and one EN). At that time, Europe "frowned" on any Country-Side own standards for any topic that was covered by an EN. For standards that were duplicated by EN in regard to scope, a kind of "grace period" was given (I think it was the 5 years for normal revision ... the Country standard had to be revoked, then). So, probably that is still the case and no calculation procedures that are covered by ENs may be covered / overridden by "local" standards (how that is handled in real life, is questionable, however).

(2)     Switzerland generally is taking over the EN standards. To data, a "mixture" of EN and SIA standards is being used.

The "fully dynamic" (IES, ESP-r etc.) vs. "simple" procedures (DIN V 18599) is probably a hot topic in many places. I assume that the goal of DIN V 18599 is to make a reasonably accurate tool readily available. The more such a tool is used (the easier it is), hopes probably are that the effect in terms of energy impact will come quicker.

Then again, full dynamic tools do leave quite a lot of "we do it this way"s open that may lead to problems when used as "Certification" ... probably, one would need to certify the users more than the tools ...

Achim

Mit freundlichen Grüssen / Best regards

Achim Geissler

________________________________

From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Pueltz, Gunter
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 11:39 AM
To: Geissler Achim
Cc: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk
Subject: [esp-r] Re: Proposed development of window shading models - e mail2

Hi Achim,

the current state of implementing the EPBD in the European countries is quite confuse:

In Germany is planned by the goverment, that from 01/01/2008 the German standard

DIN V 18599 will define the calculation methods for the so called "Energy passport" for

buildings (as the official German certificate according to EPBD).

Simultaniously the European parliament has given CEN a mandat to develope a complete

set of EUROPEAN standards, which will define the official calculation methods for energy

certificates according to EPBD. Some of these standards are currently already available 

- but also many of them are currently under development ......

I am not a specialist in politics or law - I am only an ingeneer - but I assume, that in (near ?)

future the European standards by CEN will replace all national standards concerning energy

certificates according to the EPBD - or do you think that indivdual national liberty will allow

to override the European standards ? I assume that the European standards will win ..... ?

Moreover I have heard, that in other European countries, like GB/Scottland, a complete other way has

been followed: I knew that the Scottish government has installed a national authority, which gives

certificates to software tools - like the Virtual Environment tool from IES - which are able to perform

the calculations according to EPBD ..... This software includes a zonal room simulation (similar to

the thermal domain in ESP -r), zonal air flow calculations (like the air-flow network in ESP -r)

and also a plant simulation (like the plant-domain of ESP -r) and a - very crued - light simulation

(like in ESP-r ... ????) for calculating energy consumption of lights. 

Thus in Scotland an official certificate according to EPBD can be created by using a zonal simulation tool (IES/VE),

whereas in Germany this certificate MUST base on - very inaccurate, but simple - calculation methodes

(DIN V 18599: a simple monthly balancing method - much more inaccurate than an hourly energy balancing;
also constant, standardized boundary conditions and user behaviour .....).

I do not know what is currently happening in other European countries concerning the EPBD ....

What´s going on in Switzerland - with the EMPA ? They usually are very up-to-date in Switzerland: Is the

use of a detailled (zonal) simulation tool allowed for creating a EPBD-certificate ?

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Gunter Pültz

--
Dr. Gunter Pültz

Müller-BBM GmbH
Robert-Koch-Straße 11
82152 Planegg
Telefon +49(89)85602-336
Telefax +49(89)85602-111
http://www.MuellerBBM.de <http://www.muellerbbm.de/>    

HRB München 86143
Geschäftsführer: Bernd Grözinger, Dr. Edwin Schorer, Norbert Suritsch

	-----Original Message-----
	From: Geissler Achim [mailto:Achim.Geissler at josef-gartner.ch]
	Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 11:07 AM
	To: Pueltz, Gunter
	Cc: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk
	Subject: RE: [esp-r] Re: Proposed development of window shading models - e mail 2

	Hi Gunter,

	thanks for the angle clarifications (the term "cut off" is quite widely accepted with the definition you gave, I think. However, we do use "solar altitude" for the "projected angle", usually ... is there any significant difference? I couldn't find what difference you see, from the sketch). However, I totally agree that explicit treatment of all angles would simplify any discussions. It would probably be quite a bit clear(er), what is assumed for the calcs.

	What you write about DIN V 18599 is interesting. Do you have any information on other countries in this regard? I have heard of ideas to have an "accepted EPBD" calculation tool for Europe ... for my understanding of the EPBD and the freedom of individual countries in its implementation, this is not really possible, is it? It would be interesting, of course.

	Mit freundlichen Grüssen / Best regards

	Achim Geissler

________________________________

	From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Pueltz, Gunter
	Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 10:23 AM
	To: Geissler Achim
	Cc: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk; Bart Lomanowski
	Subject: [esp-r] Re: Proposed development of window shading models - e mail 2

	2) Defintion of "profile angle e":
	The profile angle e is defined as the projection of sun heigt angle a
	into a vertical plain, which is normal to the facade (see attached picture).

	Thus the profile angle can be interpreted as "sun heigt angle" if the sun 

	azimuth angle j is not taken into account (e.g. for WIS-results or also

	in ESP-r, optical database).

	Again I propose an enhanced window model for ESP-r, which takes into

	account ALL relevant angles (see attachment):

	- blinde sloüpe angle

	- sun real heigt angle a or alternatively sun height´s profile angle e

	- sun azimuth angle j

	Concerning the official EPBD-oriented planning / calculation tool in Germany, 
	called DIN V 18599, I can tell you following:

	The DIN V 18599, part 2, defines a so called effectivce g-value, which MUST be

	calculated according to EN 13363, part 1 (simplified) or part 2 (detailled and spectral,

	but only for ONE angle of 45 degree).

	The more sophisticated algorithm of ISO 15099 (implented in WIS) is NOT allowed .......

	So it is clear, that all the angle dependancies described above are not valid for the

	stupid German DIN V 18599 ......

	Best regards,
	Gunter

	--
	Dr. Gunter Pültz

	Müller-BBM GmbH
	Robert-Koch-Straße 11
	82152 Planegg
	Telefon +49(89)85602-336
	Telefax +49(89)85602-111
	http://www.MuellerBBM.de <http://www.muellerbbm.de/>    

	HRB München 86143
	Geschäftsführer: Bernd Grözinger, Dr. Edwin Schorer, Norbert Suritsch

	> -----Original Message-----
	> From: Geissler Achim [mailto:Achim.Geissler at josef-gartner.ch <mailto:Achim.Geissler at josef-gartner.ch> ]
	> Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 9:44 AM
	> To: Pueltz, Gunter; esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk
	> Cc: Bart Lomanowski
	> Subject: RE: [esp-r] Re: Proposed development of window shading models
	>
	>
	> Hi Gunter,
	> good point on azimuth angle (if it was not already being
	> focused on). However, what WIS actually models in regard to
	> angle dependany is not so clear to me.
	>       - cut off by Venetian type blinds is definitely modelled.
	>       - other than that, comparison calculations seem to
	> imply that all the angle dependant results are simply
	> calculated by the Fresnel equation.
	>       - The paper on "new model" for Venetian type blinds:
	> The blinds considered are, of course, relatively special
	> cases. It would be interesting to see differences for more
	> "standard" types of Venetian blinds. Additionally, I do not
	> understand why "0°" and "cut-off" gives the same discrepancy.
	> Anyway, for typical control scenarios "blind down and closed
	> if sun", I assume the simple models do O.K. for most cases.
	> Enhancing the model capabilities of ESP-r in this regard is
	> very interesting for us, in any case! However, an interesting
	> question (at least here in Europe) will be: How do results /
	> performance parameters gained with enhanced models fit in
	> with the EPBD-oriented planning / calculation tools (for
	> Germany e.g. DIN 18599)?
	>
	> Mit freundlichen Grüssen / Best regards
	> 
	> Achim Geissler
	>
	> > -----Original Message-----
	> > From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk [mailto:esp-r-
	> > bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Pueltz, Gunter
	> > Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 8:30 AM
	> > To: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk
	> > Cc: 'Bart Lomanowski'
	> > Subject: [esp-r] Re: Proposed development of window shading models
	> >
	> > Bart,
	> >
	> > a short info concerning transmission and absorption of each
	> layer of a
	> > tmc:
	> >
	> > The European software "Advanced Window Information System (WIS)",
	> > Version 3.0.1, des Window Energy Data Network (WinDat), coordinated
	> > by TNO Building and Construction Research (TNO Bouw), Department:
	> > Sustainable Energy and Buildings (DEG), The Netherlands (details
	> > see http://windat.ucd.ie/wis/html/index.html)
	> >
	> > is able to calculate both the overall transmission as well as the
	> > absorption
	> > in each layer of a facade WITH venetian blinds as a function of sun
	> > altitude
	> > angle (this is the "profile angle" you suggested). The WIS
	> software is
	> > similar
	> > to the WINDOW-software from LBNL, but also treats venetian blinds.
	> > Therefore you should use the software WIS for the enhanced
	> window model in
	> > ESP-r ...
	> > An interface between WIS and ESP-r would be a great help
	> for ESP-users !!
	> >
	> > But also WIS shows a crued defect: It is NOT able to take
	> the azimuth
	> > angle
	> > of
	> > the sun into account. A recent work from Mr. Kuhn,
	> Fraunhofer-Institute of
	> > solar
	> > energy systems in Freiburg, Germany, has shown, that this
	> defect may yield
	> > -
	> > at critical
	> > sun angles - to an underestimation of solar heat gain of appr.
	> > 100% !!!!!!!
	> > Therefore it would be the best - for my opinion -, if the
	> new enhanced
	> > facade model
	> > (glazing AND blinds) takes into account ALL relevant angles:
	> > - the slope angle of the blinds
	> > - the sun heigt angle (or the profile angle)
	> > - the sun azimuth angle
	> > Concerning this topic, Mr. Kuhn has developed a new,
	> enhanced algorithm (I
	> > assume
	> > based on raytracing), which considers all these angles. Please see
	> >
	> > 1) Tilmann E Kuhn, Solar Control: A general evaluation
	> method for facades
	> > with venetian blinds or other solar control systems, Energy and
	> > Buildings, 38 (2006), 648-660.
	> >
	> > 2) Tilmann E Kuhn, Solar Control: Comparison of two new
	> systems with the
	> > state-of-the-art on the basis of a new general evaluation method for
	> > facades with venetian blinds or other solar control
	> systems, Energy and
	> > Buildings, 38 (2006), 661-672.
	> >
	> > You can also find more information about this new algorithm at the
	> > IBPSA-Germany
	> > website at MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "129.187.44.165" claiming to be MailScanner warning: numerical links are often malicious: http://129.187.44.165/konferenz/paper/2006/108.pdf <http://129.187.44.165/konferenz/paper/2006/108.pdf> 
	> >
	> > I propose that you contact Mr. Kuhn directly, because he
	> has already told
	> > his
	> > willingness to support or even participate the code
	> enhancement of ESP-r.
	> > His contact data are following:
	> >
	> > Dipl.-Phys. Tilmann E. Kuhn
	> > Head of Group Solar Facades and Durability Analysis
	> > Dept. Thermal Systems and Buildings
	> > Fraunhofer Institut für Solare Energiesysteme ISE
	> > Heidenhofstr. 2, 79110 Freiburg, Germany
	> > Phone: +49 (0) 761/ 4588-5297  Fax: +49 (0)761/ 4588-9297
	> > tilmann.kuhn at ise.fraunhofer.de
	> > http://www.ise.fraunhofer.de
	> >
	> > As a stupid ESP user I would appreciate it greatly if all
	> experts for
	> > facade
	> > modelling
	> > cooperate for the enhancement of facade modelling in ESP-r  ....
	> >
	> > Regards,
	> > Gunter
	> >
	> > --
	> > Dr. Gunter Pültz
	> >
	> > Müller-BBM GmbH
	> > Robert-Koch-Straße 11
	> > 82152 Planegg
	> > Telefon +49(89)85602-336
	> > Telefax +49(89)85602-111
	> > http://www.MuellerBBM.de
	> >
	> > HRB München 86143
	> > Geschäftsführer: Bernd Grözinger, Dr. Edwin Schorer,
	> Norbert Suritsch
	> >
	> >
	> >
	> >
	> >
	> > > -----Original Message-----
	> > > From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk
	> > > [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk]On Behalf Of
	> Bart Lomanowski
	> > > Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 3:45 PM
	> > > To: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk
	> > > Subject: [esp-r] Re: Proposed development of window shading models
	> > >
	> > >
	> > >
	> > > Thanks for all the feedback, I appreciate the interest this
	> > > subject has
	> > > generated.
	> > >
	> > > I've attached some ppt slides outlining in more detail our
	> > > model capabilities,
	> > > the ESP-r development proposal in broad strokes, and some
	> > > implementation issues
	> > > for discussion. What I am most interested in is the
	> > > capabilities of other
	> > > ongoing developments (e.g., SHOCC) and the expected
	> > > interactions of these
	> > > facilities with transparent constructions. Ideally I would
	> > > like to retain
	> > > generality with respect to the window shading
	> developments to ensure
	> > > functionality with other windows related projects. I hope a
	> > > brief discussion
	> > > will be possible at the Developer's conference to shed some
	> > > light on this.
	> > >
	> > > Thanks,
	> > >
	> > > Bart Lomanowski
	> > > University of Waterloo
	> > >
	> > >
	> > >
	> > >
	> > >
	> >
	> > _______________________________________________
	> > esp-r mailing list
	> > esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk
	> > http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r
	> 

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