From ibeausol at NRCan.gc.ca Thu Aug 31 12:45:56 2006 From: ibeausol at NRCan.gc.ca (Beausoleil-Morrison, Ian) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 07:45:56 -0400 Subject: [esp-r] Building Simulation 2007 Call for Abstracts Message-ID: Dear Colleagues: Building simulation has the potential to improve the design and operation of buildings. Computer simulation can be used to predict future performance at all stages of the building life cycle: design, commissioning, operation and management. The bi-annual IBPSA (International Building Performance Simulation Association) Building Simulation Conference and Exhibition is the premier international event in the field of building performance simulation. The next conference in this series, Building Simulation 2007, will be held from September 3 to 6, 2007 in Beijing, China. For abstract submission and further information about the Conference please visit the conference website: http://www.bs2007.org.cn The deadline for abstract submission is September 15th, 2006. We warmly invite you to join Building Simulation 2007. If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to let us know. Sincerely yours, --------------------- Building Simulation 2007 Conference Committee Dept. of Building Science, School of Architecture, Tsinghua University, Beijing 100084, P. R. China Phone: 86-10-6278-9761 Fax: 86-10-6277-0544 E-mail: bs07 at tsinghua.edu.cn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/private/esp-r/attachments/20060831/1e114c59/attachment.html From ing.wong at ulster.ac.uk Thu Aug 31 17:03:46 2006 From: ing.wong at ulster.ac.uk (Ing Liang Wong) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:03:46 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Intra-fabric temperature References: <001701c6cc39$d92af0b0$19873dc1@wongcst> Message-ID: <000d01c6cd17$0a74b380$19873dc1@wongcst> Dear all, I have conducted simulations for a multi-layer construction. In the result analysis/ graph facilities/ intra-fabric/ , I am trying to plot the temperature profile at the each layer of this construction. However, the following message appeared: The save option associated with the currently assigned result set is not 3; consequently this command is not available. Can anyone kindly explain what does it means? Thank you. Regards, Wong -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/private/esp-r/attachments/20060831/a0634e55/attachment.html From S.Burek at gcal.ac.uk Fri Sep 1 12:42:47 2006 From: S.Burek at gcal.ac.uk (Burek, Stas) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 12:42:47 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] New lecturer post in Sustainable and Renewable Energy Message-ID: *** APOLOGIES (AS ALWAYS) FOR CROSS-POSTINGS *** At Glasgow Caledonian University we want to appoint a new lecturer in Energy. Attached is a draft of an advert for the post. I'm trying to circulate this widely, so if you know anyone who might be interested, please could you pass this on. We're equally happy to consider an enthusiastic person who has recently completed a research degree, or someone with more experience, either in industry or at a university. And we're very happy to consider people from outside the UK (good English is, of course, required) The attachment doesn't have a salary range or a closing date on it, but the post is due to be advertised on our website from next week (4 September), with a closing date later on in the month. You can link to it via http://www.gcal.ac.uk/jobs/index.html. Thanks Stas <> Dr. Stas Burek School of the Built and Natural Environment Glasgow Caledonian University Cowcaddens Road Glasgow G4 0BA Scotland, UK Tel: (+44) (0)141 331 3897 Fax: (+44) (0)141 331 3370 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: energy lecturer advert sb amend 3.doc Type: application/msword Size: 52736 bytes Desc: energy lecturer advert sb amend 3.doc Url : http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/private/esp-r/attachments/20060901/2ff1b72b/attachment-0001.doc From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Mon Sep 4 18:07:43 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand (clcv10)) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 18:07:43 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] looking for an example model with fuzzy logic controler Message-ID: <47B24759-375E-4F33-9ABF-0F0822515158@esru.strath.ac.uk> We are currently reviewing the exemplar models in ESP-r and in the course of the search we have found that the simple model with fuzzy logic seems to have been corrupted. As fuzzy logic controllers is somewhat of a specialized sport which might not have been played within the ESP-r community recently, we thought of checking with the community to see if anyone might have a good working model. And it might be that no one is interested in fuzzy logic controllers anymore and it is a facility which might be pruned from a future version of ESP-r. Thoughts and comments and example models for all.... -ESRU From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Thu Sep 7 13:38:25 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand (clcv10)) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 13:38:25 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] looking for (complete) WIS optical database Message-ID: <9563F37E-CF14-40D8-84B3-65F91EE9ADE8@esru.strath.ac.uk> I am hoping the community might help on this.... We use WIS to generate optical properties for use with ESP-r models and for some time I have had in mind to populate the ESP-r optics database. Typing in numbers gets a bit tedious so...... Part of this task would be a WIS import facility. That would be something I suspect that would be welcome by the community. I have tried several times to take WIS and update its database to include the additional glazing types that are available on the WIS site but it never seems to complete the process. I never see the new glass type. But perhaps someone else has managed to do this and if they would share their file with me that would be wonderful. And the basic WIS database does not include all that many glazing systems. There are quite a few products out there that would be good to have as part of the standard distribution of ESP-r. I never seem to get the time to make up the glazing systems and confirm the details. And those of you who have worked with WIS might have populated your databases beyond what comes in the default WIS distribution. What I would like.... a) an expanded WIS database with the full set of individual glass types b) some glazing systems which map to what is currently available in the marketplace (with descriptions) c) especially some glazing systems that include blinds - at different positions (e.g. open, partly closed) - blinds between the glass and room side - different kinds of blinds (e.g. opaque metal, translucent, perforated With a mix then we can have a look at useful extensions to the ESP-r data model so that we can do a better job at capturing the variety of products users might want to use. Can anyone help? Would anyone like to help us test the new import facilities when they become available? -Jon From ordoumpozanis at gmail.com Sat Sep 9 12:10:28 2006 From: ordoumpozanis at gmail.com (kostas ordoumpozanis) Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 14:10:28 +0300 Subject: [esp-r] tutorial help Message-ID: Hi. I am trying to launch the tutorial button on project manager and after it shows the message "Starting Browsing..." it does nothing. Any answer to that. Thanks Ordoumpozanis Kostas Greece -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/private/esp-r/attachments/20060909/dc2c39a3/attachment.html From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Sat Sep 9 16:58:21 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand) Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 16:58:21 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Re: tutorial help References: Message-ID: The best current tutorial for ESP-r is the ESP-r cookbook which is available on the ESRU web page publications or as part of the ESP-r source distribution. The browsing function is somewhat old and is probably trying to invoke netscape. There are quite a few useful resources on the ESRU web page which can be invoked manually via your favorite browser. -ESRU -----Original Message----- From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk on behalf of kostas ordoumpozanis Sent: Sat 9/9/2006 12:10 PM To: esp-r at strath.ac.uk Subject: [esp-r] tutorial help Hi. I am trying to launch the tutorial button on project manager and after it shows the message "Starting Browsing..." it does nothing. Any answer to that. Thanks Ordoumpozanis Kostas Greece From cj at cr-jay.ca Sat Sep 9 19:02:04 2006 From: cj at cr-jay.ca (Chris Jones) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2006 14:02:04 -0400 Subject: [esp-r] Re: looking for (complete) WIS optical database In-Reply-To: <9563F37E-CF14-40D8-84B3-65F91EE9ADE8@esru.strath.ac.uk> References: <9563F37E-CF14-40D8-84B3-65F91EE9ADE8@esru.strath.ac.uk> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.2.20060909135810.04325130@mail.cr-jay.ca> Jon I would like to help with developing such a database. I am wondering why the Window 5 database isn't one that you would use? When you say "glazing type" do you mean glass types or glazing system types? At any rate let me know how I can help. I can do some C, C++, Perl programming for translating between different datastructures and file structures. At 08:38 AM 9/7/2006, Jon Hand (clcv10) wrote: >I am hoping the community might help on this.... > >We use WIS to generate optical properties for use with ESP-r >models and for some time I have had in mind to populate >the ESP-r optics database. Typing in numbers gets a bit >tedious so...... > >Part of this task would be a WIS import facility. That would >be something I suspect that would be welcome by the >community. > >I have tried several times to take WIS and update its database >to include the additional glazing types that are available on >the WIS site but it never seems to complete the process. I never >see the new glass type. But perhaps someone else has managed >to do this and if they would share their file with me that would >be wonderful. > >And the basic WIS database does not include all that many glazing >systems. There are quite a few products out there that would be good >to have as part of the standard distribution of ESP-r. I never seem >to get the time to make up the glazing systems and confirm the details. >And those of you who have worked with WIS might have populated >your databases beyond what comes in the default WIS distribution. > >What I would like.... >a) an expanded WIS database with the full set of individual glass > types >b) some glazing systems which map to what is currently > available in the marketplace (with descriptions) >c) especially some glazing systems that include blinds > - at different positions (e.g. open, partly closed) > - blinds between the glass and room side > - different kinds of blinds (e.g. opaque metal, translucent, >perforated > >With a mix then we can have a look at useful extensions to the >ESP-r data model so that we can do a better job at capturing the >variety of products users might want to use. > >Can anyone help? > >Would anyone like to help us test the new import facilities when >they become available? > >-Jon > > >_______________________________________________ >esp-r mailing list >esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk >http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r Chris Jones 14 Oneida Avenue Toronto, ON M5J 2E3. Tel. 416-203-7465 Fax. 416-946-1005 From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Sun Sep 10 20:32:37 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 20:32:37 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Re: Intra-fabric temperature References: <001701c6cc39$d92af0b0$19873dc1@wongcst> <000d01c6cd17$0a74b380$19873dc1@wongcst> Message-ID: A recent question about accessing temperatures within constructions... ::I have conducted simulations for a multi-layer construction. In the result analysis/ graph facilities/ intra-fabric/ , I am trying to plot the temperature profile at the each layer of this construction. However, the following message appeared: ::The save option associated with the currently assigned result set is not 3; consequently this command is not available. ::Can anyone kindly explain what does it means? In the simulator the user can define the level/quantity of performance data that is saved to the results file. These so-called 'save levels' are what this particular warning message in the results analysis module is referring to. There is a save level 3 which specifically records the temperature in each of the layers of each of the walls in a model - which is what you need to have to plot the temperature profile. Note that there is an animation mode that steps (somewhat quickly) through the simulation and graphs the temperatres through a surface that is sometimes both entertaining and educational. And we will be looking at the warning message to see if we can provide a bit more of a clue as to what should be done to run a simulation at an appropriate level of detail for temperatures within walls. -ESRU From Monika.Hall at josef-gartner.ch Tue Sep 12 14:06:24 2006 From: Monika.Hall at josef-gartner.ch (Monika Hall) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 15:06:24 +0200 Subject: [esp-r] handshaking mechanism Message-ID: Dear all, I'm new with ESP-r and I have a question about the handshaking mechanism at the CFD model. My model is a single office with a large window faced south, an air inlet on the north side and an air outlet on the south side. The office has an air change rate of 1.5 ac/h, witch means that free convection is dominant (Gr/Re^2 >> 1). I have installed a flow network and would like to install a CFD zone as well. What I would like to know is the temperature and air velocity field in the office. After reading some publications my choice is a k-e-model with: - Yuan log law for the vertical walls - Neumann log law for ceiling and floor. But I'm confused about the different possibilities of handshake mechanisms: - no 3 or 4 or 5 for internal vertical walls (Yuan) - no11 at the window (Yuan) and - no 6 or 7 at floor/ceiling (Neumann) Has anyone experience with the handshaking mechanism? I would be glad if someone could help me. Thank you. Best regards Monika -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/private/esp-r/attachments/20060912/f982d66f/attachment.html From jake.zwart at sympatico.ca Tue Sep 12 20:10:02 2006 From: jake.zwart at sympatico.ca (Jake Zwart) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 15:10:02 -0400 Subject: [esp-r] 1) Bi-directional Doors in Horiontal surfaces 2)Dummy-node scheme In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c6d6b2$11ef0e40$0a02a8c0@DellNotebook> Two questions: 1) I have heard of a trick using bi-directional door components in horiontal surfaces. In fact this is mentioned in the FAQ regarding atriums. However the input data for using a bi-directional door assumes it is in a vertical surface because it asks for the height difference between the base of the door and the center of both zones which it seperates. I looked up Hensen's thesis and the door component seems to have these assumptions built in. So, how can I implement a bi-directional door component between vertically stacked zones in my atrium? 2) I am using the dummy node scheme for my window controls as follows: I am implementing a control strategy for opening and closing window with two separate controls in series. The controls are: 1. When the indoor temperature exceeds a set temperature, say 20 C the windows will open. 2. When the ambient temperature exceeds the indoor temperature, the dummy windows will close to prevent convective heating. When I run the simulation, the dummy nodes stays at a constant 20?C (the temperature which I set the node to for the start of the run). Interestingly, although the dummy nodes stayed at a constant 20 C, interior temperatures did drop below 20 C as a result of (what looks like) ventilation. Now, it seems to me that the dummy node should be a calculated node and not following some other node temperature. Say for example that the dummy follows the ambient, then, when the dummy window is open but the window between the dummy to outside is closed, the zone will still interact with outside. Now say that the dummy follows the interior node/zone temperature. In this case when both windows are open, all incoming ventilation air will be no help since it will be at the interior node/one temperature already. How can I ensure that the dummy node is a calculated temperature and that the dummy node scheme will work properly? Thanks, Andrew Zwart -----Original Message----- From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk]On Behalf Of Jon Hand Sent: Saturday, 09 September, 2006 11:58 To: kostas ordoumpozanis Cc: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk Subject: [esp-r] Re: tutorial help The best current tutorial for ESP-r is the ESP-r cookbook which is available on the ESRU web page publications or as part of the ESP-r source distribution. The browsing function is somewhat old and is probably trying to invoke netscape. There are quite a few useful resources on the ESRU web page which can be invoked manually via your favorite browser. -ESRU -----Original Message----- From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk on behalf of kostas ordoumpozanis Sent: Sat 9/9/2006 12:10 PM To: esp-r at strath.ac.uk Subject: [esp-r] tutorial help Hi. I am trying to launch the tutorial button on project manager and after it shows the message "Starting Browsing..." it does nothing. Any answer to that. Thanks Ordoumpozanis Kostas Greece _______________________________________________ esp-r mailing list esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 3224 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/private/esp-r/attachments/20060912/7b3d4e3e/attachment.bin From oliver.bucks at club-internet.fr Wed Sep 13 08:56:10 2006 From: oliver.bucks at club-internet.fr (Oliver Bucks) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 09:56:10 +0200 Subject: [esp-r] Re: 1) Bi-directional Doors in Horiontal surfaces 2)Dummy-nodescheme References: <000001c6d6b2$11ef0e40$0a02a8c0@DellNotebook> Message-ID: <003401c6d70a$15c4ed70$f400a8c0@olli> Jake, I'm not an expert, but I think I have overcome this problem when simulating big trombe walls. The delta H should be precisely that between the nodes.... eg, a horizontal skylight with an exterior node @ 0.5m above the skylight, and the zonal node @ 1.5m below the skylight, the delta H would be 2m and -2m..... I might be wrong though Olli Bucks ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jake Zwart" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 9:10 PM Subject: [esp-r] 1) Bi-directional Doors in Horiontal surfaces 2)Dummy-nodescheme > Two questions: > > 1) I have heard of a trick using bi-directional door components in horiontal > surfaces. In fact this is mentioned in the FAQ regarding atriums. However > the input data for using a bi-directional door assumes it is in a vertical > surface because it asks for the height difference between the base of the > door and the center of both zones which it seperates. I looked up Hensen's > thesis and the door component seems to have these assumptions built in. So, > how can I implement a bi-directional door component between vertically > stacked zones in my atrium? > > 2) I am using the dummy node scheme for my window controls as follows: > > I am implementing a control strategy for opening and closing window with two > separate controls in series. The controls are: > > 1. When the indoor temperature exceeds a set temperature, say 20 C the > windows will open. > 2. When the ambient temperature exceeds the indoor temperature, the dummy > windows > will close to prevent convective heating. > > When I run the simulation, the dummy nodes stays at a constant 20?C (the > temperature which I set the node to for the start of the run). > Interestingly, although the dummy nodes stayed at a constant 20 C, interior > temperatures did drop below 20 C as a result of (what looks like) > ventilation. > > Now, it seems to me that the dummy node should be a calculated node and not > following some other node temperature. Say for example that the dummy > follows the ambient, then, when the dummy window is open but the window > between the dummy to outside is closed, the zone will still interact with > outside. Now say that the dummy follows the interior node/zone temperature. > In this case when both windows are open, all incoming ventilation air will > be no help since it will be at the interior node/one temperature already. > > How can I ensure that the dummy node is a calculated temperature and that > the dummy node scheme will work properly? > > Thanks, > > Andrew Zwart > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk > [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk]On Behalf Of Jon Hand > Sent: Saturday, 09 September, 2006 11:58 > To: kostas ordoumpozanis > Cc: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > Subject: [esp-r] Re: tutorial help > > > > The best current tutorial for ESP-r is the ESP-r cookbook > which is available on the ESRU web page publications or > as part of the ESP-r source distribution. > > The browsing function is somewhat old and is probably > trying to invoke netscape. There are quite a few useful > resources on the ESRU web page which can be invoked > manually via your favorite browser. > > -ESRU > > > -----Original Message----- > From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk on behalf of kostas ordoumpozanis > Sent: Sat 9/9/2006 12:10 PM > To: esp-r at strath.ac.uk > Subject: [esp-r] tutorial help > > Hi. I am trying to launch the tutorial button on project manager and after > it shows the message "Starting Browsing..." it does nothing. Any answer to > that. > > Thanks > Ordoumpozanis Kostas > Greece > > > > _______________________________________________ > esp-r mailing list > esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > esp-r mailing list > esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.3/446 - Release Date: 12/09/2006 From j.hensen at tue.nl Wed Sep 13 09:04:30 2006 From: j.hensen at tue.nl (Hensen, J.L.M.) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 10:04:30 +0200 Subject: [esp-r] Re: 1) Bi-directional Doors in Horiontal surfaces2)Dummy-nodescheme Message-ID: <059A9430C0AD2B48B4269206F42010C804569EA1@ARCHEX2.CAMPUS.TUE.NL> In my opinion, you shouldn't use a bi-directional flow large opening in a horizontal position. It is totally out of the theoretical scope of the model. The results are more than likely to be meaningless. You can use multiple one-way flow openings instead. Jan -----Original Message----- From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Oliver Bucks Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 9:56 AM To: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk Subject: [esp-r] Re: 1) Bi-directional Doors in Horiontal surfaces2)Dummy-nodescheme Jake, I'm not an expert, but I think I have overcome this problem when simulating big trombe walls. The delta H should be precisely that between the nodes.... eg, a horizontal skylight with an exterior node @ 0.5m above the skylight, and the zonal node @ 1.5m below the skylight, the delta H would be 2m and -2m..... I might be wrong though Olli Bucks ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jake Zwart" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 9:10 PM Subject: [esp-r] 1) Bi-directional Doors in Horiontal surfaces 2)Dummy-nodescheme > Two questions: > > 1) I have heard of a trick using bi-directional door components in horiontal > surfaces. In fact this is mentioned in the FAQ regarding atriums. However > the input data for using a bi-directional door assumes it is in a vertical > surface because it asks for the height difference between the base of the > door and the center of both zones which it seperates. I looked up Hensen's > thesis and the door component seems to have these assumptions built in. So, > how can I implement a bi-directional door component between vertically > stacked zones in my atrium? > > 2) I am using the dummy node scheme for my window controls as follows: > > I am implementing a control strategy for opening and closing window with two > separate controls in series. The controls are: > > 1. When the indoor temperature exceeds a set temperature, say 20 C the > windows will open. > 2. When the ambient temperature exceeds the indoor temperature, the dummy > windows > will close to prevent convective heating. > > When I run the simulation, the dummy nodes stays at a constant 20?C (the > temperature which I set the node to for the start of the run). > Interestingly, although the dummy nodes stayed at a constant 20 C, interior > temperatures did drop below 20 C as a result of (what looks like) > ventilation. > > Now, it seems to me that the dummy node should be a calculated node and not > following some other node temperature. Say for example that the dummy > follows the ambient, then, when the dummy window is open but the window > between the dummy to outside is closed, the zone will still interact with > outside. Now say that the dummy follows the interior node/zone temperature. > In this case when both windows are open, all incoming ventilation air will > be no help since it will be at the interior node/one temperature already. > > How can I ensure that the dummy node is a calculated temperature and that > the dummy node scheme will work properly? > > Thanks, > > Andrew Zwart > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk > [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk]On Behalf Of Jon Hand > Sent: Saturday, 09 September, 2006 11:58 > To: kostas ordoumpozanis > Cc: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > Subject: [esp-r] Re: tutorial help > > > > The best current tutorial for ESP-r is the ESP-r cookbook > which is available on the ESRU web page publications or > as part of the ESP-r source distribution. > > The browsing function is somewhat old and is probably > trying to invoke netscape. There are quite a few useful > resources on the ESRU web page which can be invoked > manually via your favorite browser. > > -ESRU > > > -----Original Message----- > From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk on behalf of kostas ordoumpozanis > Sent: Sat 9/9/2006 12:10 PM > To: esp-r at strath.ac.uk > Subject: [esp-r] tutorial help > > Hi. I am trying to launch the tutorial button on project manager and after > it shows the message "Starting Browsing..." it does nothing. Any answer to > that. > > Thanks > Ordoumpozanis Kostas > Greece > > > > _______________________________________________ > esp-r mailing list > esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------- > _______________________________________________ > esp-r mailing list > esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.3/446 - Release Date: 12/09/2006 _______________________________________________ esp-r mailing list esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r From Achim.Geissler at josef-gartner.ch Wed Sep 13 09:10:49 2006 From: Achim.Geissler at josef-gartner.ch (Achim Geissler) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 10:10:49 +0200 Subject: [esp-r] Re: 1) Bi-directional Doors in Horiontal surfaces2)Dummy-nodescheme Message-ID: Hi Jake, Olli, the height scheme always is a bit confusing. My understanding is different from Olli's, however: zone to exterior via skylight (node to node via component) diff height -ve node to component & diff height component to +ve node In the example this would lead to an entry in the .afn file something like +Node dHght -Node dHght via Component zone 1.5 ext.node 0.5 skylight Leading to the height difference of 2 m between the nodes "zone" and "exterior" with the flow resistance "skylight 1.5 m above the zone node So, in my understanding there would be no height difference in the from and to nodes in the way Olli gave it. ... lets see what ESRU has to say :^) Anyway, I think Jake was looking for something else: I don't know if the door component will give meaningfull results when used "horizontally". However, for the atrium problem, why not define two components and link them with the top and bottom nodes in such a way that bypass flow (or flow in two directions) is possible? Generally, any atrium of appreciable size will need to be split in several zones, anyway, to model the stack effect. Regards, Achim > -----Original Message----- > From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk [mailto:esp-r- > bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Oliver Bucks > Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 9:56 AM > To: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > Subject: [esp-r] Re: 1) Bi-directional Doors in Horiontal surfaces2)Dummy- > nodescheme > > Jake, > > I'm not an expert, but I think I have overcome this problem when > simulating big > trombe walls. The delta H should be precisely that between the nodes.... > eg, a > horizontal skylight with an exterior node @ 0.5m above the skylight, and > the > zonal node @ 1.5m below the skylight, the delta H would be 2m and -2m..... > > I might be wrong though > > Olli Bucks > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jake Zwart" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 9:10 PM > Subject: [esp-r] 1) Bi-directional Doors in Horiontal surfaces > 2)Dummy-nodescheme > > > > Two questions: > > > > 1) I have heard of a trick using bi-directional door components in > horiontal > > surfaces. In fact this is mentioned in the FAQ regarding atriums. > However > > the input data for using a bi-directional door assumes it is in a > vertical > > surface because it asks for the height difference between the base of > the > > door and the center of both zones which it seperates. I looked up > Hensen's > > thesis and the door component seems to have these assumptions built in. > So, > > how can I implement a bi-directional door component between vertically > > stacked zones in my atrium? > > > > 2) I am using the dummy node scheme for my window controls as follows: > > > > I am implementing a control strategy for opening and closing window with > two > > separate controls in series. The controls are: > > > > 1. When the indoor temperature exceeds a set temperature, say 20 C the > > windows will open. > > 2. When the ambient temperature exceeds the indoor temperature, the > dummy > > windows > > will close to prevent convective heating. > > > > When I run the simulation, the dummy nodes stays at a constant 20?C (the > > temperature which I set the node to for the start of the run). > > Interestingly, although the dummy nodes stayed at a constant 20 C, > interior > > temperatures did drop below 20 C as a result of (what looks like) > > ventilation. > > > > Now, it seems to me that the dummy node should be a calculated node and > not > > following some other node temperature. Say for example that the dummy > > follows the ambient, then, when the dummy window is open but the window > > between the dummy to outside is closed, the zone will still interact > with > > outside. Now say that the dummy follows the interior node/zone > temperature. > > In this case when both windows are open, all incoming ventilation air > will > > be no help since it will be at the interior node/one temperature already. > > > > How can I ensure that the dummy node is a calculated temperature and > that > > the dummy node scheme will work properly? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Andrew Zwart > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk > > [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk]On Behalf Of Jon Hand > > Sent: Saturday, 09 September, 2006 11:58 > > To: kostas ordoumpozanis > > Cc: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > > Subject: [esp-r] Re: tutorial help > > > > > > > > The best current tutorial for ESP-r is the ESP-r cookbook > > which is available on the ESRU web page publications or > > as part of the ESP-r source distribution. > > > > The browsing function is somewhat old and is probably > > trying to invoke netscape. There are quite a few useful > > resources on the ESRU web page which can be invoked > > manually via your favorite browser. > > > > -ESRU > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk on behalf of kostas ordoumpozanis > > Sent: Sat 9/9/2006 12:10 PM > > To: esp-r at strath.ac.uk > > Subject: [esp-r] tutorial help > > > > Hi. I am trying to launch the tutorial button on project manager and > after > > it shows the message "Starting Browsing..." it does nothing. Any > answer to > > that. > > > > Thanks > > Ordoumpozanis Kostas > > Greece > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > esp-r mailing list > > esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > > http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > esp-r mailing list > > esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > > http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.3/446 - Release Date: 12/09/2006 > > > _______________________________________________ > esp-r mailing list > esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r From Gunter.Pueltz at MuellerBBM.de Wed Sep 13 10:01:53 2006 From: Gunter.Pueltz at MuellerBBM.de (Pueltz, Gunter) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 11:01:53 +0200 Subject: [esp-r] Re: Bi-directional air flow component for VERTICAL air ex change Message-ID: <2417729F3416D511A27E0090273A963B010B08C0@smex01.mbbm.de> Very interesting discussion about the vertical air exchange of stacked zones ! 1) First I want to affirm Jan?s statement, that a bi-directional air flow component should NOT be used for vertical air exchange ! The bi-directional door element has been developed for verical elements like doors or windows, thus the results for vertical air exchange (i.e. skylights) would be absolutely meaningless (or even wrong) !!!! 2) The interesting discussion shows however the strong requirement/needness of a bi-directional air-flow component for VERTICAL air flow exchange, which always takes place in an atrium or in a large open space over several floors ... The physical phenomena, which drives the vertical air flow exchange in such spaces are also well known: a) thermal instable stratification (means cold air above warm air), which initiates the so called "Raleigh-Bernard-convection" (= small eddys at the interface between upper cold and lower warm air); the intensity of this vertical air exchange rate is depending on the difference of air temperature at the upper/lower air flow node ... b) boundary layers at vertical facades, which initiate an upward(warm) or downward(cold) air flow within the boundary layer; the intensity of this vertical air exchange rate is depending on the difference between node air temperature and the internal surface temperature of the adjacent surfaces ... It would be a great enhancement of ESP -r, if an air flow component would be developed for the vertical air flow exchange, based on the two main driving physical phenomena listed above. Gunter -- Dr. Gunter P?ltz M?ller-BBM GmbH Robert-Koch-Stra?e 11 82152 Planegg Telefon +49 (0)89 85602 - 336 Telefax +49 (0)89 85602 - 111 http://www.MuellerBBM.de > -----Original Message----- > From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk > [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk]On Behalf Of Hensen, J.L.M. > Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 10:05 AM > To: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > Subject: [esp-r] Re: 1) Bi-directional Doors in Horiontal > surfaces2)Dummy-nodescheme > > > > In my opinion, you shouldn't use a bi-directional flow large > opening in > a horizontal position. It is totally out of the theoretical > scope of the > model. The results are more than likely to be meaningless. > You can use multiple one-way flow openings instead. > > Jan > > -----Original Message----- > From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk > [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Oliver Bucks > Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 9:56 AM > To: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > Subject: [esp-r] Re: 1) Bi-directional Doors in Horiontal > surfaces2)Dummy-nodescheme > > Jake, > > I'm not an expert, but I think I have overcome this problem when > simulating big > trombe walls. The delta H should be precisely that between > the nodes.... > eg, a > horizontal skylight with an exterior node @ 0.5m above the > skylight, and > the > zonal node @ 1.5m below the skylight, the delta H would be 2m and > -2m..... > > I might be wrong though > > Olli Bucks > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jake Zwart" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 9:10 PM > Subject: [esp-r] 1) Bi-directional Doors in Horiontal surfaces > 2)Dummy-nodescheme > > > > Two questions: > > > > 1) I have heard of a trick using bi-directional door components in > horiontal > > surfaces. In fact this is mentioned in the FAQ regarding atriums. > However > > the input data for using a bi-directional door assumes it is in a > vertical > > surface because it asks for the height difference between > the base of > the > > door and the center of both zones which it seperates. I looked up > Hensen's > > thesis and the door component seems to have these assumptions built > in. So, > > how can I implement a bi-directional door component between > vertically > > stacked zones in my atrium? > > > > 2) I am using the dummy node scheme for my window controls > as follows: > > > > I am implementing a control strategy for opening and closing window > with two > > separate controls in series. The controls are: > > > > 1. When the indoor temperature exceeds a set temperature, > say 20 C the > > windows will open. > > 2. When the ambient temperature exceeds the indoor temperature, the > dummy > > windows > > will close to prevent convective heating. > > > > When I run the simulation, the dummy nodes stays at a constant 20?C > (the > > temperature which I set the node to for the start of the run). > > Interestingly, although the dummy nodes stayed at a constant 20 C, > interior > > temperatures did drop below 20 C as a result of (what looks like) > > ventilation. > > > > Now, it seems to me that the dummy node should be a calculated node > and not > > following some other node temperature. Say for example > that the dummy > > follows the ambient, then, when the dummy window is open but the > window > > between the dummy to outside is closed, the zone will still interact > with > > outside. Now say that the dummy follows the interior node/zone > temperature. > > In this case when both windows are open, all incoming > ventilation air > will > > be no help since it will be at the interior node/one temperature > already. > > > > How can I ensure that the dummy node is a calculated temperature and > that > > the dummy node scheme will work properly? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Andrew Zwart > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk > > [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk]On Behalf Of Jon Hand > > Sent: Saturday, 09 September, 2006 11:58 > > To: kostas ordoumpozanis > > Cc: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > > Subject: [esp-r] Re: tutorial help > > > > > > > > The best current tutorial for ESP-r is the ESP-r cookbook > > which is available on the ESRU web page publications or > > as part of the ESP-r source distribution. > > > > The browsing function is somewhat old and is probably > > trying to invoke netscape. There are quite a few useful > > resources on the ESRU web page which can be invoked > > manually via your favorite browser. > > > > -ESRU > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk on behalf of kostas > ordoumpozanis > > Sent: Sat 9/9/2006 12:10 PM > > To: esp-r at strath.ac.uk > > Subject: [esp-r] tutorial help > > > > Hi. I am trying to launch the tutorial button on project manager and > after > > it shows the message "Starting Browsing..." it does nothing. Any > answer to > > that. > > > > Thanks > > Ordoumpozanis Kostas > > Greece > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > esp-r mailing list > > esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > > http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > -------- > > > > _______________________________________________ > > esp-r mailing list > > esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > > http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > -------- > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.3/446 - Release Date: > 12/09/2006 > > > _______________________________________________ > esp-r mailing list > esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r > > _______________________________________________ > esp-r mailing list > esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r > From jeremy at esru.strath.ac.uk Wed Sep 13 10:42:14 2006 From: jeremy at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jeremy Cockroft) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 10:42:14 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Re: Bi-directional air flow component for VERTICAL airex change In-Reply-To: <2417729F3416D511A27E0090273A963B010B08C0@smex01.mbbm.de> Message-ID: <221C1AC3541E7D4FB09EB58B16FFEF4A657D5B@BE-SCAM2.ds.strath.ac.uk> As already stated by other posters, the bi-directional flow component models the physics of vertical openings, and has no meaning when applied to a horizontal opening. Maybe the complexity of air flows within atria and the like would justify the use of the CFD domain within ESP-r - perhaps that is where development activity to address this class of problem should be applied. Jeremy Cockroft University of Strathclyde -----Original Message----- From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Pueltz, Gunter Sent: 13 September 2006 10:02 To: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk Subject: [esp-r] Re: Bi-directional air flow component for VERTICAL airex change Very interesting discussion about the vertical air exchange of stacked zones ! 1) First I want to affirm Jan?s statement, that a bi-directional air flow component should NOT be used for vertical air exchange ! The bi-directional door element has been developed for verical elements like doors or windows, thus the results for vertical air exchange (i.e. skylights) would be absolutely meaningless (or even wrong) !!!! 2) The interesting discussion shows however the strong requirement/needness of a bi-directional air-flow component for VERTICAL air flow exchange, which always takes place in an atrium or in a large open space over several floors ... The physical phenomena, which drives the vertical air flow exchange in such spaces are also well known: a) thermal instable stratification (means cold air above warm air), which initiates the so called "Raleigh-Bernard-convection" (= small eddys at the interface between upper cold and lower warm air); the intensity of this vertical air exchange rate is depending on the difference of air temperature at the upper/lower air flow node ... b) boundary layers at vertical facades, which initiate an upward(warm) or downward(cold) air flow within the boundary layer; the intensity of this vertical air exchange rate is depending on the difference between node air temperature and the internal surface temperature of the adjacent surfaces ... It would be a great enhancement of ESP -r, if an air flow component would be developed for the vertical air flow exchange, based on the two main driving physical phenomena listed above. Gunter -- Dr. Gunter P?ltz M?ller-BBM GmbH Robert-Koch-Stra?e 11 82152 Planegg Telefon +49 (0)89 85602 - 336 Telefax +49 (0)89 85602 - 111 http://www.MuellerBBM.de > -----Original Message----- > From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk > [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk]On Behalf Of Hensen, J.L.M. > Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 10:05 AM > To: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > Subject: [esp-r] Re: 1) Bi-directional Doors in Horiontal > surfaces2)Dummy-nodescheme > > > > In my opinion, you shouldn't use a bi-directional flow large > opening in > a horizontal position. It is totally out of the theoretical > scope of the > model. The results are more than likely to be meaningless. > You can use multiple one-way flow openings instead. > > Jan > > -----Original Message----- > From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk > [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Oliver Bucks > Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 9:56 AM > To: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > Subject: [esp-r] Re: 1) Bi-directional Doors in Horiontal > surfaces2)Dummy-nodescheme > > Jake, > > I'm not an expert, but I think I have overcome this problem when > simulating big > trombe walls. The delta H should be precisely that between > the nodes.... > eg, a > horizontal skylight with an exterior node @ 0.5m above the > skylight, and > the > zonal node @ 1.5m below the skylight, the delta H would be 2m and > -2m..... > > I might be wrong though > > Olli Bucks > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jake Zwart" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 9:10 PM > Subject: [esp-r] 1) Bi-directional Doors in Horiontal surfaces > 2)Dummy-nodescheme > > > > Two questions: > > > > 1) I have heard of a trick using bi-directional door components in > horiontal > > surfaces. In fact this is mentioned in the FAQ regarding atriums. > However > > the input data for using a bi-directional door assumes it is in a > vertical > > surface because it asks for the height difference between > the base of > the > > door and the center of both zones which it seperates. I looked up > Hensen's > > thesis and the door component seems to have these assumptions built > in. So, > > how can I implement a bi-directional door component between > vertically > > stacked zones in my atrium? > > > > 2) I am using the dummy node scheme for my window controls > as follows: > > > > I am implementing a control strategy for opening and closing window > with two > > separate controls in series. The controls are: > > > > 1. When the indoor temperature exceeds a set temperature, > say 20 C the > > windows will open. > > 2. When the ambient temperature exceeds the indoor temperature, the > dummy > > windows > > will close to prevent convective heating. > > > > When I run the simulation, the dummy nodes stays at a constant 20?C > (the > > temperature which I set the node to for the start of the run). > > Interestingly, although the dummy nodes stayed at a constant 20 C, > interior > > temperatures did drop below 20 C as a result of (what looks like) > > ventilation. > > > > Now, it seems to me that the dummy node should be a calculated node > and not > > following some other node temperature. Say for example > that the dummy > > follows the ambient, then, when the dummy window is open but the > window > > between the dummy to outside is closed, the zone will still interact > with > > outside. Now say that the dummy follows the interior node/zone > temperature. > > In this case when both windows are open, all incoming > ventilation air > will > > be no help since it will be at the interior node/one temperature > already. > > > > How can I ensure that the dummy node is a calculated temperature and > that > > the dummy node scheme will work properly? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Andrew Zwart > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk > > [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk]On Behalf Of Jon Hand > > Sent: Saturday, 09 September, 2006 11:58 > > To: kostas ordoumpozanis > > Cc: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > > Subject: [esp-r] Re: tutorial help > > > > > > > > The best current tutorial for ESP-r is the ESP-r cookbook > > which is available on the ESRU web page publications or > > as part of the ESP-r source distribution. > > > > The browsing function is somewhat old and is probably > > trying to invoke netscape. There are quite a few useful > > resources on the ESRU web page which can be invoked > > manually via your favorite browser. > > > > -ESRU > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk on behalf of kostas > ordoumpozanis > > Sent: Sat 9/9/2006 12:10 PM > > To: esp-r at strath.ac.uk > > Subject: [esp-r] tutorial help > > > > Hi. I am trying to launch the tutorial button on project manager and > after > > it shows the message "Starting Browsing..." it does nothing. Any > answer to > > that. > > > > Thanks > > Ordoumpozanis Kostas > > Greece > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > esp-r mailing list > > esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > > http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > -------- > > > > _______________________________________________ > > esp-r mailing list > > esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > > http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > -------- > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.3/446 - Release Date: > 12/09/2006 > > > _______________________________________________ > esp-r mailing list > esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r > > _______________________________________________ > esp-r mailing list > esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r > _______________________________________________ esp-r mailing list esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r From Gunter.Pueltz at MuellerBBM.de Wed Sep 13 10:54:13 2006 From: Gunter.Pueltz at MuellerBBM.de (Pueltz, Gunter) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 11:54:13 +0200 Subject: [esp-r] Re: Bi-directional air flow component for VERTICAL ai r exchange Message-ID: <2417729F3416D511A27E0090273A963B010B08C3@smex01.mbbm.de> If CFD is used for resolving the vertical air flow exchange, the CFD domain of ESP -r must be able to extend over several stacked zones (not only one zone) .... ? And how to match the problem with skylights opening towards outside ? I assume using CFD for modelling the outside/ambient air is no so easy, or ... ? I only can reaffirm the needness of an air flow component for vertical air flow exchange as a part of ZONAL air flow network ! Gunter > -----Original Message----- > From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk > [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk]On Behalf Of Jeremy Cockroft > Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 11:42 AM > To: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > Subject: [esp-r] Re: Bi-directional air flow component for VERTICAL > airex change > > > As already stated by other posters, the bi-directional flow > component models the physics of vertical openings, and has no > meaning when applied to a horizontal opening. Maybe the > complexity of air flows within atria and the like would > justify the use of the CFD domain within ESP-r - perhaps that > is where development activity to address this class of > problem should be applied. > Jeremy Cockroft > University of Strathclyde > > -----Original Message----- > From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk > [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Pueltz, Gunter > Sent: 13 September 2006 10:02 > To: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > Subject: [esp-r] Re: Bi-directional air flow component for > VERTICAL airex change > > Very interesting discussion about the vertical air exchange > of stacked zones ! > > 1) First I want to affirm Jan?s statement, that a > bi-directional air flow component should NOT be used for > vertical air exchange ! The bi-directional door element has > been developed for verical elements like doors or windows, > thus the results for vertical air exchange (i.e. skylights) > would be absolutely meaningless (or even wrong) !!!! > > 2) The interesting discussion shows however the strong > requirement/needness of a bi-directional air-flow component > for VERTICAL air flow exchange, which always takes place in > an atrium or in a large open space over several floors ... > The physical phenomena, which drives the vertical air flow > exchange in such spaces are also well known: > > a) thermal instable stratification (means cold air above warm > air), which initiates the so called > "Raleigh-Bernard-convection" (= small eddys at the interface > between upper cold and lower warm air); the intensity of this > vertical air exchange rate is depending on the difference of > air temperature at the upper/lower air flow node ... > > b) boundary layers at vertical facades, which initiate an > upward(warm) or > downward(cold) air > flow within the boundary layer; the intensity of this > vertical air exchange rate is depending on the difference > between node air temperature and the internal surface > temperature of the adjacent surfaces ... > > > It would be a great enhancement of ESP -r, if an air flow > component would be > developed for > the vertical air flow exchange, based on the two main driving physical > phenomena listed above. > > Gunter > > -- > Dr. Gunter P?ltz > > M?ller-BBM GmbH > Robert-Koch-Stra?e 11 > 82152 Planegg > Telefon +49 (0)89 85602 - 336 > Telefax +49 (0)89 85602 - 111 > http://www.MuellerBBM.de > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk > > [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk]On Behalf Of Hensen, J.L.M. > > Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 10:05 AM > > To: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > > Subject: [esp-r] Re: 1) Bi-directional Doors in Horiontal > > surfaces2)Dummy-nodescheme > > > > > > > > In my opinion, you shouldn't use a bi-directional flow large > > opening in > > a horizontal position. It is totally out of the theoretical > > scope of the > > model. The results are more than likely to be meaningless. > > You can use multiple one-way flow openings instead. > > > > Jan > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk > > [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Oliver Bucks > > Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 9:56 AM > > To: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > > Subject: [esp-r] Re: 1) Bi-directional Doors in Horiontal > > surfaces2)Dummy-nodescheme > > > > Jake, > > > > I'm not an expert, but I think I have overcome this problem when > > simulating big > > trombe walls. The delta H should be precisely that between > > the nodes.... > > eg, a > > horizontal skylight with an exterior node @ 0.5m above the > > skylight, and > > the > > zonal node @ 1.5m below the skylight, the delta H would be 2m and > > -2m..... > > > > I might be wrong though > > > > Olli Bucks > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Jake Zwart" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 9:10 PM > > Subject: [esp-r] 1) Bi-directional Doors in Horiontal surfaces > > 2)Dummy-nodescheme > > > > > > > Two questions: > > > > > > 1) I have heard of a trick using bi-directional door components in > > horiontal > > > surfaces. In fact this is mentioned in the FAQ regarding atriums. > > However > > > the input data for using a bi-directional door assumes it is in a > > vertical > > > surface because it asks for the height difference between > > the base of > > the > > > door and the center of both zones which it seperates. I looked up > > Hensen's > > > thesis and the door component seems to have these > assumptions built > > in. So, > > > how can I implement a bi-directional door component between > > vertically > > > stacked zones in my atrium? > > > > > > 2) I am using the dummy node scheme for my window controls > > as follows: > > > > > > I am implementing a control strategy for opening and > closing window > > with two > > > separate controls in series. The controls are: > > > > > > 1. When the indoor temperature exceeds a set temperature, > > say 20 C the > > > windows will open. > > > 2. When the ambient temperature exceeds the indoor > temperature, the > > dummy > > > windows > > > will close to prevent convective heating. > > > > > > When I run the simulation, the dummy nodes stays at a > constant 20?C > > (the > > > temperature which I set the node to for the start of the run). > > > Interestingly, although the dummy nodes stayed at a constant 20 C, > > interior > > > temperatures did drop below 20 C as a result of (what looks like) > > > ventilation. > > > > > > Now, it seems to me that the dummy node should be a > calculated node > > and not > > > following some other node temperature. Say for example > > that the dummy > > > follows the ambient, then, when the dummy window is open but the > > window > > > between the dummy to outside is closed, the zone will > still interact > > with > > > outside. Now say that the dummy follows the interior node/zone > > temperature. > > > In this case when both windows are open, all incoming > > ventilation air > > will > > > be no help since it will be at the interior node/one temperature > > already. > > > > > > How can I ensure that the dummy node is a calculated > temperature and > > that > > > the dummy node scheme will work properly? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Andrew Zwart > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk > > > [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk]On Behalf Of Jon Hand > > > Sent: Saturday, 09 September, 2006 11:58 > > > To: kostas ordoumpozanis > > > Cc: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > > > Subject: [esp-r] Re: tutorial help > > > > > > > > > > > > The best current tutorial for ESP-r is the ESP-r cookbook > > > which is available on the ESRU web page publications or > > > as part of the ESP-r source distribution. > > > > > > The browsing function is somewhat old and is probably > > > trying to invoke netscape. There are quite a few useful > > > resources on the ESRU web page which can be invoked > > > manually via your favorite browser. > > > > > > -ESRU > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk on behalf of kostas > > ordoumpozanis > > > Sent: Sat 9/9/2006 12:10 PM > > > To: esp-r at strath.ac.uk > > > Subject: [esp-r] tutorial help > > > > > > Hi. I am trying to launch the tutorial button on project > manager and > > after > > > it shows the message "Starting Browsing..." it does nothing. Any > > answer to > > > that. > > > > > > Thanks > > > Ordoumpozanis Kostas > > > Greece > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > esp-r mailing list > > > esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > > > http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---------- > > -------- > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > esp-r mailing list > > > esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > > > http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---------- > > -------- > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.3/446 - Release Date: > > 12/09/2006 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > esp-r mailing list > > esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > > http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r > > > > _______________________________________________ > > esp-r mailing list > > esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > > http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r > > > > _______________________________________________ > esp-r mailing list > esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r > > _______________________________________________ > esp-r mailing list > esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r > From ing.wong at ulster.ac.uk Wed Sep 13 11:35:47 2006 From: ing.wong at ulster.ac.uk (Ing Liang Wong) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 11:35:47 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] separate zone as air gap References: <001701c6cc39$d92af0b0$19873dc1@wongcst> Message-ID: <001b01c6d720$605b9da0$19873dc1@wongcst> Dear all, 1) Can anyone tell me how to create a black absorber paint (absorptivity of 0.9) on the 'external' surface of a wall mass. Can I do this by simply change the absorptivity of the wall mass in the material database? 2) I have created a separate zone for 20mm air gap between a internal wall mass and a layer of TIM. The software requires a specification of construction material for top, side and bottom surfaces of the zone. What is the best solution for this? Many thanks. Regards, Wong -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/private/esp-r/attachments/20060913/31578140/attachment.html From oliver.bucks at club-internet.fr Wed Sep 13 12:01:45 2006 From: oliver.bucks at club-internet.fr (Oliver Bucks) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 13:01:45 +0200 Subject: [esp-r] Re: 1) Bi-directional Doors in Horiontal surfaces2)Dummy-nodescheme References: Message-ID: <004701c6d724$00cb0f20$f400a8c0@olli> Achim, you're right, I wasn't concentrating...... Olli wrote - >The delta H should be precisely that between the nodes.... > eg, a horizontal skylight with an exterior node @ 0.5m above the skylight, and > the zonal node @ 1.5m below the skylight, the delta H would be 2m and -2m..... Achim wrote - >In the example this would lead to an entry in the .afn file something like >+Node dHght -Node dHght via Component >zone 1.5 ext.node 0.5 skylight I may have mis-modelled several constructions in the past if bi-directional components shouldn't be used in horizontal positions...... Does anyone have feed-back regarding the modeling of solar chimneys and similar constructions ? Thanks, Olli Bucks From Achim.Geissler at josef-gartner.ch Wed Sep 13 11:59:38 2006 From: Achim.Geissler at josef-gartner.ch (Achim Geissler) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 12:59:38 +0200 Subject: [esp-r] Re: Bi-directional air flow component for VERTICAL ai rexchange Message-ID: Hi Gunter, if CFD is used, you would only need one zone, as CFD could easily model the stack (it is inherent in CFD calcs). However, it would be a problem in regard to time steps, probably (for time steps where CFD is off, the flow network would be too simple) ... model size, maybe ... runtime most likely. Achim > -----Original Message----- > From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk [mailto:esp-r- > bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Pueltz, Gunter > Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 11:54 AM > To: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > Subject: [esp-r] Re: Bi-directional air flow component for VERTICAL ai > rexchange > > If CFD is used for resolving the vertical air flow exchange, > the CFD domain of ESP -r must be able to extend over several > stacked zones (not only one zone) .... ? > > And how to match the problem with skylights opening towards > outside ? I assume using CFD for modelling the outside/ambient > air is no so easy, or ... ? > > I only can reaffirm the needness of an air flow component for > vertical air flow exchange as a part of ZONAL air flow network ! > > Gunter > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk > > [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk]On Behalf Of Jeremy Cockroft > > Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 11:42 AM > > To: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > > Subject: [esp-r] Re: Bi-directional air flow component for VERTICAL > > airex change > > > > > > As already stated by other posters, the bi-directional flow > > component models the physics of vertical openings, and has no > > meaning when applied to a horizontal opening. Maybe the > > complexity of air flows within atria and the like would > > justify the use of the CFD domain within ESP-r - perhaps that > > is where development activity to address this class of > > problem should be applied. > > Jeremy Cockroft > > University of Strathclyde > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk > > [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Pueltz, Gunter > > Sent: 13 September 2006 10:02 > > To: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > > Subject: [esp-r] Re: Bi-directional air flow component for > > VERTICAL airex change > > > > Very interesting discussion about the vertical air exchange > > of stacked zones ! > > > > 1) First I want to affirm Jan?s statement, that a > > bi-directional air flow component should NOT be used for > > vertical air exchange ! The bi-directional door element has > > been developed for verical elements like doors or windows, > > thus the results for vertical air exchange (i.e. skylights) > > would be absolutely meaningless (or even wrong) !!!! > > > > 2) The interesting discussion shows however the strong > > requirement/needness of a bi-directional air-flow component > > for VERTICAL air flow exchange, which always takes place in > > an atrium or in a large open space over several floors ... > > The physical phenomena, which drives the vertical air flow > > exchange in such spaces are also well known: > > > > a) thermal instable stratification (means cold air above warm > > air), which initiates the so called > > "Raleigh-Bernard-convection" (= small eddys at the interface > > between upper cold and lower warm air); the intensity of this > > vertical air exchange rate is depending on the difference of > > air temperature at the upper/lower air flow node ... > > > > b) boundary layers at vertical facades, which initiate an > > upward(warm) or > > downward(cold) air > > flow within the boundary layer; the intensity of this > > vertical air exchange rate is depending on the difference > > between node air temperature and the internal surface > > temperature of the adjacent surfaces ... > > > > > > It would be a great enhancement of ESP -r, if an air flow > > component would be > > developed for > > the vertical air flow exchange, based on the two main driving physical > > phenomena listed above. > > > > Gunter > > > > -- > > Dr. Gunter P?ltz > > > > M?ller-BBM GmbH > > Robert-Koch-Stra?e 11 > > 82152 Planegg > > Telefon +49 (0)89 85602 - 336 > > Telefax +49 (0)89 85602 - 111 > > http://www.MuellerBBM.de > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk > > > [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk]On Behalf Of Hensen, J.L.M. > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 10:05 AM > > > To: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > > > Subject: [esp-r] Re: 1) Bi-directional Doors in Horiontal > > > surfaces2)Dummy-nodescheme > > > > > > > > > > > > In my opinion, you shouldn't use a bi-directional flow large > > > opening in > > > a horizontal position. It is totally out of the theoretical > > > scope of the > > > model. The results are more than likely to be meaningless. > > > You can use multiple one-way flow openings instead. > > > > > > Jan > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk > > > [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Oliver Bucks > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 9:56 AM > > > To: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > > > Subject: [esp-r] Re: 1) Bi-directional Doors in Horiontal > > > surfaces2)Dummy-nodescheme > > > > > > Jake, > > > > > > I'm not an expert, but I think I have overcome this problem when > > > simulating big > > > trombe walls. The delta H should be precisely that between > > > the nodes.... > > > eg, a > > > horizontal skylight with an exterior node @ 0.5m above the > > > skylight, and > > > the > > > zonal node @ 1.5m below the skylight, the delta H would be 2m and > > > -2m..... > > > > > > I might be wrong though > > > > > > Olli Bucks > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Jake Zwart" > > > To: > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 9:10 PM > > > Subject: [esp-r] 1) Bi-directional Doors in Horiontal surfaces > > > 2)Dummy-nodescheme > > > > > > > > > > Two questions: > > > > > > > > 1) I have heard of a trick using bi-directional door components in > > > horiontal > > > > surfaces. In fact this is mentioned in the FAQ regarding atriums. > > > However > > > > the input data for using a bi-directional door assumes it is in a > > > vertical > > > > surface because it asks for the height difference between > > > the base of > > > the > > > > door and the center of both zones which it seperates. I looked up > > > Hensen's > > > > thesis and the door component seems to have these > > assumptions built > > > in. So, > > > > how can I implement a bi-directional door component between > > > vertically > > > > stacked zones in my atrium? > > > > > > > > 2) I am using the dummy node scheme for my window controls > > > as follows: > > > > > > > > I am implementing a control strategy for opening and > > closing window > > > with two > > > > separate controls in series. The controls are: > > > > > > > > 1. When the indoor temperature exceeds a set temperature, > > > say 20 C the > > > > windows will open. > > > > 2. When the ambient temperature exceeds the indoor > > temperature, the > > > dummy > > > > windows > > > > will close to prevent convective heating. > > > > > > > > When I run the simulation, the dummy nodes stays at a > > constant 20?C > > > (the > > > > temperature which I set the node to for the start of the run). > > > > Interestingly, although the dummy nodes stayed at a constant 20 C, > > > interior > > > > temperatures did drop below 20 C as a result of (what looks like) > > > > ventilation. > > > > > > > > Now, it seems to me that the dummy node should be a > > calculated node > > > and not > > > > following some other node temperature. Say for example > > > that the dummy > > > > follows the ambient, then, when the dummy window is open but the > > > window > > > > between the dummy to outside is closed, the zone will > > still interact > > > with > > > > outside. Now say that the dummy follows the interior node/zone > > > temperature. > > > > In this case when both windows are open, all incoming > > > ventilation air > > > will > > > > be no help since it will be at the interior node/one temperature > > > already. > > > > > > > > How can I ensure that the dummy node is a calculated > > temperature and > > > that > > > > the dummy node scheme will work properly? > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Andrew Zwart > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk > > > > [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk]On Behalf Of Jon Hand > > > > Sent: Saturday, 09 September, 2006 11:58 > > > > To: kostas ordoumpozanis > > > > Cc: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > > > > Subject: [esp-r] Re: tutorial help > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The best current tutorial for ESP-r is the ESP-r cookbook > > > > which is available on the ESRU web page publications or > > > > as part of the ESP-r source distribution. > > > > > > > > The browsing function is somewhat old and is probably > > > > trying to invoke netscape. There are quite a few useful > > > > resources on the ESRU web page which can be invoked > > > > manually via your favorite browser. > > > > > > > > -ESRU > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk on behalf of kostas > > > ordoumpozanis > > > > Sent: Sat 9/9/2006 12:10 PM > > > > To: esp-r at strath.ac.uk > > > > Subject: [esp-r] tutorial help > > > > > > > > Hi. I am trying to launch the tutorial button on project > > manager and > > > after > > > > it shows the message "Starting Browsing..." it does nothing. Any > > > answer to > > > > that. > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > Ordoumpozanis Kostas > > > > Greece > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > esp-r mailing list > > > > esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > > > > http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ---------- > > > -------- > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > esp-r mailing list > > > > esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > > > > http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ---------- > > > -------- > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.3/446 - Release Date: > > > 12/09/2006 > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > esp-r mailing list > > > esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > > > http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > esp-r mailing list > > > esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > > > http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > esp-r mailing list > > esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > > http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r > > > > _______________________________________________ > > esp-r mailing list > > esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > > http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r > > > > _______________________________________________ > esp-r mailing list > esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Wed Sep 13 13:03:25 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand (clcv10)) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 13:03:25 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Re: separate zone as air gap In-Reply-To: <001b01c6d720$605b9da0$19873dc1@wongcst> References: <001701c6cc39$d92af0b0$19873dc1@wongcst> <001b01c6d720$605b9da0$19873dc1@wongcst> Message-ID: <270BB0BF-BC18-46C7-AEE3-092ADDFF1B5F@esru.strath.ac.uk> > A recent question about changing surface absorption... > 1) Can anyone tell me how to create a black absorber paint > (absorptivity of 0.9) on the 'external' surface of a wall mass. Can > I do this by simply change the absorptivity of the wall mass in the > material database? > Yes this is the correct approach. Find an existing material in the database and make a copy of it giving the copy a suitably different name and then adjust its solar absorption. > 2) I have created a separate zone for 20mm air gap between a > internal wall mass and a layer of TIM. The software requires a > specification of construction material for top, side and bottom > surfaces of the zone. What is the best solution for this? > A zone in ESP-r must be fully bounded. Just because it is only 20mm from front to back there still will be a top and a bottom and sides. You could have defined this using the in-built create a zone from a rectangle (which would have created the polygons for the top and bottom and sides). Otherwise you are going to have to manually add surfaces between the existing front and back surfaces. The menu showing the list of surfaces and their edges has an option to 'add' a surface by clicking on existing points or typing in the indices of the existing vertices. The help associated with this part of the interface tells you the rules that must be followed when creating a surface (e.g. you can't do a mobius strip as a surface, the order of the edges tells esp-r which way the surface is facing). Given that one of the existing dimensions is 20mm it will be difficult to see what you are doing in the interface. So, advise is to scrap this partial zone and create it using the rectangular option. -ESRU -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/private/esp-r/attachments/20060913/765c214a/attachment.html From jake.zwart at sympatico.ca Wed Sep 13 14:10:46 2006 From: jake.zwart at sympatico.ca (Jake Zwart) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 09:10:46 -0400 Subject: [esp-r] 2)Dummy-node scheme In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002101c6d736$0759a880$6401a8c0@DellNotebook> And now my second question: 2) I am using the dummy node scheme for my window controls as follows: I am implementing a control strategy for opening and closing window with two separate controls in series. The controls are: 1. When the indoor temperature exceeds a set temperature, say 20 C the windows will open. 2. When the ambient temperature exceeds the indoor temperature, the dummy windows will close to prevent convective heating. When I run the simulation and then do a results analysis, the dummy nodes stay at a constant 20C (the temperature which I set the nodes to for the start of the run). Interestingly, although the dummy nodes stayed at a constant 20C, the interior temperatures did drop below 20 C as a result of (what looks like) ventilation. Now, it seems to me that the dummy node should be a calculated node and not following some other node temperature. Say for example that the dummy follows the ambient, then, when the dummy window is open but the window between the dummy to outside is closed, the zone will still interact with outside. Now say that the dummy follows the interior node/zone temperature. In this case when both windows are open, all incoming ventilation air will be no help since it will be at the interior node/one temperature already. How can I ensure that the dummy node is a calculated temperature and that the dummy node scheme will work properly? Thanks, Andrew Zwart -----Original Message----- From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk]On Behalf Of Jon Hand Sent: Saturday, 09 September, 2006 11:58 To: kostas ordoumpozanis Cc: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk Subject: [esp-r] Re: tutorial help The best current tutorial for ESP-r is the ESP-r cookbook which is available on the ESRU web page publications or as part of the ESP-r source distribution. The browsing function is somewhat old and is probably trying to invoke netscape. There are quite a few useful resources on the ESRU web page which can be invoked manually via your favorite browser. -ESRU -----Original Message----- From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk on behalf of kostas ordoumpozanis Sent: Sat 9/9/2006 12:10 PM To: esp-r at strath.ac.uk Subject: [esp-r] tutorial help Hi. I am trying to launch the tutorial button on project manager and after it shows the message "Starting Browsing..." it does nothing. Any answer to that. Thanks Ordoumpozanis Kostas Greece _______________________________________________ esp-r mailing list esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2944 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/private/esp-r/attachments/20060913/cbb2dc92/attachment.bin From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Wed Sep 13 14:48:15 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand (clcv10)) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 14:48:15 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Re: 2)Dummy-node scheme In-Reply-To: <002101c6d736$0759a880$6401a8c0@DellNotebook> References: <002101c6d736$0759a880$6401a8c0@DellNotebook> Message-ID: <2EE835DB-BC01-442F-82A1-3171B7C701F1@esru.strath.ac.uk> > > I am implementing a control strategy for opening and closing window > with two > separate controls in series. The controls are: .... The complexity of having to have 2 controls in series was recently the subject of a change in the mass flow control code, in particular the multi-sensor flow controller has been extended to allow for AND and OR logical tests between two, three, or four separate sensed locations. For example one control and one component can now turn on if node temperature A is above 18 and a boundary node outside is above 15C AND is below 25C. The result of this change is that previously complex flow networks can be much simpler and there are fewer instances where serial control logic and dummy zones are required. The code has passed all the new revision control tests and an example model is ready to be submited to the revision control. As soon as these have been taken into the official repository they will be available to all. -ESRU From jake.zwart at sympatico.ca Wed Sep 13 19:27:38 2006 From: jake.zwart at sympatico.ca (Jake Zwart) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 14:27:38 -0400 Subject: [esp-r] Re: [ESP-r] Dummy-node scheme In-Reply-To: <2EE835DB-BC01-442F-82A1-3171B7C701F1@esru.strath.ac.uk> Message-ID: <001101c6d762$4b96f8f0$6401a8c0@DellNotebook> I want to make sure my current scheme is working properly as I have a deadline to meet. Please take a look at the concerns raised and comment on them. It is nice to know that controls will be made easier. It will be useful when it comes. Thanks, Andrew Zwart -----Original Message----- From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk]On Behalf Of Jon Hand (clcv10) Sent: Wednesday, 13 September, 2006 9:48 To: jake.zwart at sympatico.ca Cc: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk Subject: [esp-r] Re: 2)Dummy-node scheme > > I am implementing a control strategy for opening and closing window > with two > separate controls in series. The controls are: .... The complexity of having to have 2 controls in series was recently the subject of a change in the mass flow control code, in particular the multi-sensor flow controller has been extended to allow for AND and OR logical tests between two, three, or four separate sensed locations. For example one control and one component can now turn on if node temperature A is above 18 and a boundary node outside is above 15C AND is below 25C. The result of this change is that previously complex flow networks can be much simpler and there are fewer instances where serial control logic and dummy zones are required. The code has passed all the new revision control tests and an example model is ready to be submited to the revision control. As soon as these have been taken into the official repository they will be available to all. -ESRU _______________________________________________ esp-r mailing list esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r From esp-r at h-rd.org Thu Sep 14 15:05:42 2006 From: esp-r at h-rd.org (esp-r at h-rd.org) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 16:05:42 +0200 Subject: [esp-r] TMC and thermophysical property replacement Message-ID: <1158242742.450961b631548@webmail.dds.nl> Dear esp-r list members, currently I am experimenting with optical control in TMC files. Basically I have several questions: 1) My objective is to control the absorbed solar radiation of a construction. The construction is not transparent, but it seems to me that using ESP-r, I can models this construction as transparent. Is this a reasonable approach? 2) Is ther specific documentation available on making the optical property set for a construction? for example for my construction I have set the visible transmittance to 0, and also the direct solar transmittance = 0. It seems that then the absortion of the different layers is not free to choose anymore? 3) Do the optical properties change the value of the emissivity? 4) In the manual (Data Model Summary, ESP-r Version 9 Series, page 25) it is stated: "In addition, it is possible to replace the thermophysical properties of the TMC. For each control period, an index points to an alternative set of thermophysical properties from a construction in the multi-constructional database. It is important that the number of elements in the replacement construction is the same as for the original construction. The replacement values are read in and stored in this file. If the index is zero, the thermophysical properties are unchanged." Is there an example available? yours sincerely, Marc Hoffmann esp-r at h-rd.org From cj at cr-jay.ca Thu Sep 14 15:21:47 2006 From: cj at cr-jay.ca (Chris Jones) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 10:21:47 -0400 Subject: [esp-r] Re: WIS optical database and Frameplus In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.2.20060909135810.04325130@mail.cr-jay.ca> References: <9563F37E-CF14-40D8-84B3-65F91EE9ADE8@esru.strath.ac.uk> <6.1.1.1.2.20060909135810.04325130@mail.cr-jay.ca> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.2.20060914101638.0453eb80@mail.cr-jay.ca> Jake commented that Frameplus is another resource for glazing systems. Frameplus is similar to the Window5-Therm combination. Frameplus contains Vision for constructing glazing systems and the frame component for constructing frame components. The Frameplus combines the glazing system with the applicable frame components to give overall optical and thermal properties. These can be exported to DOE2. Frameplus is not an optical database per se. Vision contains glass properties that are also in Window5. If you are using Frameplus you can export the Window5 characteristics file to import into DOE2 or into esp-r. It would be more of a one off transfer, not an extraction of existing optical database properties. At least as far as I have used Frameplus with esp-r. >http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r Chris Jones 14 Oneida Avenue Toronto, ON M5J 2E3. Tel. 416-203-7465 Fax. 416-946-1005 From Achim.Geissler at josef-gartner.ch Thu Sep 14 15:25:37 2006 From: Achim.Geissler at josef-gartner.ch (Achim Geissler) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 16:25:37 +0200 Subject: [esp-r] Re: TMC and thermophysical property replacement Message-ID: Hi Marc, some careful replies: 1) possibly, if the actual construction is not transparent, using the physical property substitution by itself may be easier (I seem to remember there is one(?)). 2) Generally, abs + tran + ref must be 1.0 (for every angle). This is the only "restriction" as far as I am aware. However, setting trans to zero may cause problems (we never went below 0.001 because of problems). 3) No, this is changed by the thermal construction entry 4) As far as I am aware, there is no easily understood example. However, the general procedure is quite straightforward. You need to know the index of the alternative construction to be used and enter this in the .tmc file as described. But, if you change / edit your construction database, the index will change and it won't work anymore. Moreover, the exchanged construction must have the same number of layers. Regards, Achim > -----Original Message----- > From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk [mailto:esp-r- > bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk] On Behalf Of esp-r at h-rd.org > Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 4:06 PM > To: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > Cc: esp-r at h-rd.org > Subject: [esp-r] TMC and thermophysical property replacement > > Dear esp-r list members, > > currently I am experimenting with optical control in TMC files. > Basically I have several questions: > > 1) My objective is to control the absorbed solar radiation of a > construction. > The construction is not transparent, but it seems to me that using ESP-r, > I can > models this construction as transparent. Is this a reasonable approach? > > 2) Is ther specific documentation available on making the optical property > set > for a construction? for example for my construction I have set the > visible > transmittance to 0, and also the direct solar transmittance = 0. It > seems that > then the absortion of the different layers is not free to choose anymore? > > 3) Do the optical properties change the value of the emissivity? > > 4) In the manual (Data Model Summary, ESP-r Version 9 Series, page 25) it > is > stated: > "In addition, it is possible to replace the thermophysical properties > of > the TMC. For each control period, an index points to an alternative set > of thermophysical properties from a construction in the multi- > constructional > database. It is important that the number of elements in the > replacement > construction is the same as for the original construction. The > replacement > values are read in and stored in this file. If the index is zero, the > thermophysical properties are unchanged." > Is there an example available? > > > yours sincerely, > > Marc Hoffmann > esp-r at h-rd.org > > _______________________________________________ > esp-r mailing list > esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r From Monika.Hall at josef-gartner.ch Fri Sep 15 10:43:34 2006 From: Monika.Hall at josef-gartner.ch (Monika Hall) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 11:43:34 +0200 Subject: [esp-r] temperature control Message-ID: Dear all, I have a problem to control the temperature. My model is a mechanically ventilated room. The incoming air passes a mixing zone before it enters the room. I would like to heat/cool the room with the incoming air, therefore I need to couple the air temperature of the incoming air with the room air temperature. Depending on the room air temperature the temperature in the mixing zone have to increase or decrease. I tried the coupling with 'zones/controls' and controller 'basic control' - sensor senses the temperature of the room - actuator is air point of the current zone (here mixing zone) But the given heating / cooling setpoints are related with 'mixing zone'. There is no difference in the results between sensor senses room or mixing zone temperature. Does anyone know, if I could solve this problem with 'zones controls' or must I install a plant? Regards Monika -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20060915/272f5eb5/attachment.html From Gunter.Pueltz at MuellerBBM.de Fri Sep 15 10:45:18 2006 From: Gunter.Pueltz at MuellerBBM.de (Pueltz, Gunter) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 11:45:18 +0200 Subject: [esp-r] convective heat transfer coefficients in ESP -r Message-ID: <2417729F3416D511A27E0090273A963B010B08D9@smex01.mbbm.de> To the ESP-r fan club: Can anyone provide some informations about the Bar-Cohen and Rosenhow correlation for convective heat transfer coefficients in an open, vertical channel (only buoyancy driven air flow) ? Does this correlation take the air velocity within a channel into account ? Is the air velocity calculated according to the results of the air-flow-network ? The channel itself is a zone, which is linked with an air flow node .... What is the best approach for the htc in an open, vertical channel with intensive air flow (one side of the channel is very hot: it is the wall of a turbine) ...? Any comments are appreciated ! Best regards, Gunter -- Gunter P?ltz M?ller-BBM GmbH Robert-Koch-Stra?e 11 82152 Planegg Telefon +49 (0)89 85602 - 336 Telefax +49 (0)89 85602 - 111 http://www.MuellerBBM.de From ing.wong at ulster.ac.uk Fri Sep 15 11:50:58 2006 From: ing.wong at ulster.ac.uk (Ing Liang Wong) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 11:50:58 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Strange results from TIM simulations References: <001701c6cc39$d92af0b0$19873dc1@wongcst> <001b01c6d720$605b9da0$19873dc1@wongcst> Message-ID: <001401c6d8b4$d43f7800$19873dc1@wongcst> Dear all, I have created new material, construction and optical databases for a TIM construction, which has the following thermo-physical and optical properties: 1) external glass pane R-Value: 0.01 Density: 2710 Spec. heat capacity: 837 Thermal conductivity: 0.76 Absorption at 0, 40, 55, 70, 80 angles: 0.016, 0.018, 0.019, 0.020, 0.021 2) PMMA capillaries R-Value: 0.55 Density: 30 Spec. heat capacity: 1400 Thermal conductivity: 0.04 Absorption at 0, 40, 55, 70, 80 angles: 0.02, 0.025, 0.03, 0.035, 0.04 3) Internal glass pane R-Value: 0.01 Density: 2710 Spec. heat capacity: 837 Thermal conductivity: 0.76 Absorption at 0, 40, 55, 70, 80 angles: 0.016, 0.018, 0.019, 0.020, 0.021 Overall transmission at 0, 40, 55, 70, 80 angles: 0.74, 0.702, 0.570, 0.463, 0.377 I have conducted simulations to a model with a TI-glazing and TI-wall (a separate zone as air space in between TI-glazing and wall mass). The strange thing is: 1) when I modified the optical properties (increase or decrease the values of overall trans and absorption), the results did not changed at all. Anyone who had experienced this problem before? 2) the zone energy loss (5197.39kWh) was more than energy gain (3432.64kWh), which is not the characteristic of TIM. Anyone can help in this case? Thank you. Regards, Wong -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20060915/f50ffd72/attachment.html From S.Burek at gcal.ac.uk Fri Sep 15 12:23:08 2006 From: S.Burek at gcal.ac.uk (Burek, Stas) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 12:23:08 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Re: convective heat transfer coefficients in ESP -r Message-ID: Dear Gunter I presume that you're looking at a solar chimney or some sort of passive solar collector? We're doing work on exactly that. We have a paper recently published in Energy and Buildings, and we're doing some more work on the how height affects the flow rate and heat transfer. If you look at the literature, there's plenty of it for buoyancy driven flow in a vertical channel. The problem is that there is very little that specifically reflects the conditions in a solar system - a lot of it refers to systems with symmetrical heating, or with an adiabatic 'cold' wall, or with a uniform wall temperature - none of these conditions occur in a solar system. Also, if you're looking at flow within a channel, with the temperature rising both for the fluid and the channel walls, it's difficult to define a heat transfer coefficient. So far, we've analysed our (experimental) data to give a result for bulk flow and thermal efficiency, as a function of channel depth and heat input. Coming soon will be these as a function of the channel height, as well. Then we'll take a look at how the heat transfer coefficient varies over the height of the system. Check out: Air flow and thermal efficiency characteristics in solar chimneys and Trombe Walls * Energy and Buildings, In Press, Corrected Proof, Available online 17 August 2006, S. A.M. Burek and A. Habeb There are references to lots of previous work there as well. Hope this might be useful Thanks Stas Burek Dr. Stas Burek School of the Built and Natural Environment Glasgow Caledonian University Cowcaddens Road Glasgow G4 0BA Scotland, UK Tel: (+44) (0)141 331 3897 Fax: (+44) (0)141 331 3370 -----Original Message----- From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Pueltz, Gunter Sent: 15 September 2006 10:45 To: 'esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk' Subject: [esp-r] convective heat transfer coefficients in ESP -r To the ESP-r fan club: Can anyone provide some informations about the Bar-Cohen and Rosenhow correlation for convective heat transfer coefficients in an open, vertical channel (only buoyancy driven air flow) ? Does this correlation take the air velocity within a channel into account ? Is the air velocity calculated according to the results of the air-flow-network ? The channel itself is a zone, which is linked with an air flow node .... What is the best approach for the htc in an open, vertical channel with intensive air flow (one side of the channel is very hot: it is the wall of a turbine) ...? Any comments are appreciated ! Best regards, Gunter -- Gunter P?ltz M?ller-BBM GmbH Robert-Koch-Stra?e 11 82152 Planegg Telefon +49 (0)89 85602 - 336 Telefax +49 (0)89 85602 - 111 http://www.MuellerBBM.de _______________________________________________ esp-r mailing list esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r Email has been scanned for viruses by Altman Technologies' email management service - www.altman.co.uk/emailsystems From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Fri Sep 15 12:42:26 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand (clcv10)) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 12:42:26 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Re: Strange results from TIM simulations and related issues... In-Reply-To: <001401c6d8b4$d43f7800$19873dc1@wongcst> References: <001701c6cc39$d92af0b0$19873dc1@wongcst> <001b01c6d720$605b9da0$19873dc1@wongcst> <001401c6d8b4$d43f7800$19873dc1@wongcst> Message-ID: <2241B9B6-44F2-4137-BA76-E64F30E406E7@esru.strath.ac.uk> A recent question on simulating transparent insulation materials... is sort of like other recent questions about bits of ESP-r that do not get used all that often. Esp-r provides quite a few facilities within the results analysis module for exploring the physics that are occurring within rooms and within TIM and other not-so-common design ideas. It actually reports a true energy balance - try getting that from most any other tool. Indeed, you can explore in ESP-r in ways that are not at all possible in other simulation tools - you can debug the program live, you can add in you own reports and test out your own methods. An experienced user is often able to use 'res' and the simulation trace facilities to figure out what is happening within a model. But communicating these sorts of skills via email and discussion lists has not been particularly efficient in the past. Debugging complex models often requires access to the models themselves rather than brief descriptions of what went wrong. The ESP-r community has fantastic resources to help users who are pushing the boundaries of simulation. And some topics are sort of 'on-the-edge'. Every once in a while people model TIM, but there is no exemplar model available for easy reference and there is no tutorial giving the steps needed to model such a design because it is a niche topic. The community can be a source of new exemplar models - we love them and want to include more good models in the distribution! Perhaps it is time to consider a workshop on model debugging for those who are 'at the edge' of the tool. A result of this might be extensions to the trace facilities and/or additional checking within ESP-r (as well as the participants gaining some useful skills). -ESRU From vleal at fe.up.pt Fri Sep 15 14:15:57 2006 From: vleal at fe.up.pt (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?V=EDtor_Leal?=) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 14:15:57 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Re: convective heat transfer coefficients in ESP -r In-Reply-To: <2417729F3416D511A27E0090273A963B010B08D9@smex01.mbbm.de> References: <2417729F3416D511A27E0090273A963B010B08D9@smex01.mbbm.de> Message-ID: <450AA78D.8090504@fe.up.pt> Dear Gunter & All, It was me who put the vertical heat channel, buoyancy-flow correlations into ESP-r (incl. the Bar-Cohen & Rohsenow correlation). All those correlations depart from the channel wall temperatures, then go to Rayleigh number(s), then to Nusselt and wall convection coefficient values. The air velocity is dynamically calculated as function of the glazing temperature, which then influences the glazing temperature. I used/developed them for air gaps of a naturally ventilated window, with gaps of 2 and 4 cm. I haven't looked at the latest versions of ESP-r, but I guess that it shall be mostly unchanged in that part. The details are in my thesis, at sections 2.3, 4.3 and chapter 6. It is written in English and you can download it from: http://paginas.fe.up.pt/~vleal I recommend that you use small time steps (1 or 5 minute) time-steps if you model this way. Kind regards, V?tor Pueltz, Gunter wrote: > To the ESP-r fan club: > > Can anyone provide some informations about the Bar-Cohen and Rosenhow > correlation > for convective heat transfer coefficients in an open, vertical channel (only > buoyancy driven air flow) ? > > Does this correlation take the air velocity within a channel into account ? > Is the air velocity calculated according to the results of the > air-flow-network ? > The channel itself is a zone, which is linked with an air flow node .... > > What is the best approach for the htc in an open, vertical channel with > intensive > air flow (one side of the channel is very hot: it is the wall of a turbine) > ...? > > Any comments are appreciated ! > > Best regards, > Gunter > > -- > Gunter P?ltz > > M?ller-BBM GmbH > Robert-Koch-Stra?e 11 > 82152 Planegg > Telefon +49 (0)89 85602 - 336 > Telefax +49 (0)89 85602 - 111 > http://www.MuellerBBM.de > > _______________________________________________ > esp-r mailing list > esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20060915/c785d2e3/attachment.html From paul at esru.strath.ac.uk Fri Sep 15 16:52:45 2006 From: paul at esru.strath.ac.uk (paul strachan) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 16:52:45 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Re: Strange results from TIM simulations In-Reply-To: <001401c6d8b4$d43f7800$19873dc1@wongcst> References: <001701c6cc39$d92af0b0$19873dc1@wongcst> <001b01c6d720$605b9da0$19873dc1@wongcst> <001401c6d8b4$d43f7800$19873dc1@wongcst> Message-ID: <450ACC4D.2080703@esru.strath.ac.uk> Dear Wong, Look the the solar gains, temperatures, fluxes etc in the zone you are using to represent the air space between the TIM and the mass wall. It should help you to understand what is happening in your model. I'll separately send you an old paper from 1994 where we compared measurements and predictions of the temperature profile through a facade of transparent insulation over a mass wall. It was modelled using a similar approach to the one you have adopted. The results of the comparison were quite positive. Regards Paul Ing Liang Wong wrote: > Dear all, > > I have created new material, construction and optical databases for a > TIM construction, which has the following thermo-physical and optical > properties: > > 1) external glass pane > R-Value: 0.01 > Density: 2710 > Spec. heat capacity: 837 > Thermal conductivity: 0.76 > Absorption at 0, 40, 55, 70, 80 angles: 0.016, 0.018, 0.019, 0.020, 0.021 > > 2) PMMA capillaries > R-Value: 0.55 > Density: 30 > Spec. heat capacity: 1400 > Thermal conductivity: 0.04 > Absorption at 0, 40, 55, 70, 80 angles: 0.02, 0.025, 0.03, 0.035, 0.04 > > 3) Internal glass pane > R-Value: 0.01 > Density: 2710 > Spec. heat capacity: 837 > Thermal conductivity: 0.76 > Absorption at 0, 40, 55, 70, 80 angles: 0.016, 0.018, 0.019, 0.020, 0.021 > > Overall transmission at 0, 40, 55, 70, 80 angles: 0.74, 0.702, 0.570, > 0.463, 0.377 > > I have conducted simulations to a model with a TI-glazing and TI-wall > (a separate zone as air space in between TI-glazing and wall mass). > The strange thing is: > > 1) when I modified the optical properties (increase or decrease the > values of overall trans and absorption), the results did not changed > at all. Anyone who had experienced this problem before? > > 2) the zone energy loss (5197.39kWh) was more than energy gain > (3432.64kWh), which is not the characteristic of TIM. > > Anyone can help in this case? > > Thank you. > > > Regards, > Wong > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > esp-r mailing list > esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r -- *************************************************************** Dr P A Strachan email: paul at esru.strath.ac.uk ESRU, Dept. of Mechanical Eng. phone: +44 141 548 2041 University of Strathclyde fax: +44 141 552 5105 Glasgow G1 1XJ, UK http://www.esru.strath.ac.uk *************************************************************** From woehrle at umt-ulm.de Sun Sep 17 11:03:44 2006 From: woehrle at umt-ulm.de (=?ISO-8859-15?Q?Heiko_W=F6hrle?=) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 12:03:44 +0200 Subject: [esp-r] Urgent: Shading devices Message-ID: <450D1D80.6020103@umt-ulm.de> Hello everybody, i have a really urgent and hopeful simple question: what is the easiest way to implement a external shading device like a jalousie (that closes at a specific radiation) in esp-r? i tried switching the properties of the transparent layers (in the TMC) but there are some questions about: - how can i calculate the optical properties with the jalousie/blind? - can i see the status of the tmc, whether the jalousie is closed or not, in the result analysis? i think drawing the jalousie as an obstruction would be to detailed an also i haven't found a possibility to switch the obstruction on/off i'm really looking forward to your replies cause i got to have the first results of the simulation on Wednesday. Thanks in advance Heiko W?hrle Umweltmanagement und -technik GmbH Lise-Meitner-Str. 15 D-89081 Ulm Fon +49 731 / 50 99 55 2 Fax +49 731 / 50 99 50 0 From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Sun Sep 17 19:19:02 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 19:19:02 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Re: Urgent: Shading devices References: <450D1D80.6020103@umt-ulm.de> Message-ID: Obstruction blocks are static in ESP-r. Usually optical properties are calculated via and external application such as WIS or Window5.2 and then the data is added to the ESP-r optical database. Zone surfaces which are transparent can have optical properties that change based on a limited number of sensed conditions (and/or time). You can turn on a trace facility at simulation time which should provide indicators of the solar that is being absorbed in the transparent layers. And a change in optical properties should show up in reports/graphs related to solar-entering a zone which should show a change in value when the alternative optical properties are in place. There is code awaiting incorporation in the standard distribution which improves the trace facilities. The most simple approach is to change the optical property of the glazing facing the outside to approximate the action of the external shading device. -ESRU -----Original Message----- From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk on behalf of Heiko W?hrle Sent: Sun 9/17/2006 11:03 AM To: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk Subject: [esp-r] Urgent: Shading devices Hello everybody, i have a really urgent and hopeful simple question: what is the easiest way to implement a external shading device like a jalousie (that closes at a specific radiation) in esp-r? i tried switching the properties of the transparent layers (in the TMC) but there are some questions about: - how can i calculate the optical properties with the jalousie/blind? - can i see the status of the tmc, whether the jalousie is closed or not, in the result analysis? i think drawing the jalousie as an obstruction would be to detailed an also i haven't found a possibility to switch the obstruction on/off i'm really looking forward to your replies cause i got to have the first results of the simulation on Wednesday. Thanks in advance Heiko W?hrle Umweltmanagement und -technik GmbH Lise-Meitner-Str. 15 D-89081 Ulm Fon +49 731 / 50 99 55 2 Fax +49 731 / 50 99 50 0 _______________________________________________ esp-r mailing list esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r From Monika.Hall at josef-gartner.ch Wed Sep 20 15:53:26 2006 From: Monika.Hall at josef-gartner.ch (Monika Hall) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 16:53:26 +0200 Subject: [esp-r] model with flow network and plant Message-ID: Hello esp-r world, I tried to make a model with a plant and an air flow network. I think, I m on the right way, but I need a little help. My hope was the "hvac_vav" esp-r usr training example but I'm not sure if this example works correctly. Is there somebody who has an example, one room with a flow network and a plant, and can sent it to me? It would be fine, if the inlet air of the plant was heated/cooled depending on the room air temperature. I would be glad if someone could help me. Thank you. Best regards Monika -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20060920/ff15d8e0/attachment.html From AFerguso at NRCan.gc.ca Mon Sep 25 20:20:14 2006 From: AFerguso at NRCan.gc.ca (Ferguson, Alex) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 15:20:14 -0400 Subject: [esp-r] Beta testing improvements to installation procedures Message-ID: Greetings from Ottawa, Over the past few months, Jon Hand and I have been collaborating to improve ESP-r installation procedures and accompanying documentation. Our proposed changes currently reside on the 'Install_script' branch in the ESP-r Central repository --- in the coming months we plan to move them on to the 'development_branch' and finally into the general release. Before unleashing our changes on the ESP-r development community, we're looking for some volunteers to assist with testing the script. If you're familiar with compiling ESP-r from source (or if you've always wanted to learn how!), and would like to help us out, please drop me a line. I'll guide you through the steps necessary to download and install the code on Install_branch. I can also arrange developer accounts on ESP-r Central if you'd like to contribute directly to this aspect of ESP-r development. I hope to hear from you soon. - Alex ----- Alex Ferguson Building simulation R&D CANMET Energy Technology Centre Natural Resources Canada P:+1 613 995 3294 F:+1 613 996 9909 Alex.Ferguson at nrcan.gc.ca From cj at cr-jay.ca Thu Sep 28 15:58:13 2006 From: cj at cr-jay.ca (Chris Jones) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 10:58:13 -0400 Subject: [esp-r] Re: Beta testing improvements to installation procedures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.2.20060928105749.02673cb0@mail.cr-jay.ca> Alex I can test the install over the next few days. At 15:20 2006-09-25, Ferguson, Alex wrote: >Greetings from Ottawa, > >Over the past few months, Jon Hand and I have been collaborating to >improve ESP-r installation procedures and accompanying documentation. >Our proposed changes currently reside on the 'Install_script' branch in >the ESP-r Central repository --- in the coming months we plan to move >them on to the 'development_branch' and finally into the general >release. > >Before unleashing our changes on the ESP-r development community, we're >looking for some volunteers to assist with testing the script. If you're >familiar with compiling ESP-r from source (or if you've always wanted to >learn how!), and would like to help us out, please drop me a line. I'll >guide you through the steps necessary to download and install the code >on Install_branch. I can also arrange developer accounts on ESP-r >Central if you'd like to contribute directly to this aspect of ESP-r >development. > >I hope to hear from you soon. > >- Alex > >----- >Alex Ferguson >Building simulation R&D >CANMET Energy Technology Centre >Natural Resources Canada >P:+1 613 995 3294 >F:+1 613 996 9909 >Alex.Ferguson at nrcan.gc.ca > > > > >_______________________________________________ >esp-r mailing list >esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk >http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r Chris Jones, P.Eng. 14 Oneida Avenue Toronto, ON M5J2E3 Tel. 416 203-7465 Fax. 416 946-1005 From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Fri Sep 29 12:27:41 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand (clcv10)) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 12:27:41 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Fwd: [ESP-r] night cooling / ventilation (from the old archive) References: <200408200951.13998.jon@esru.strath.ac.uk> Message-ID: <0422B031-3243-4B11-801C-A902048E5EC0@esru.strath.ac.uk> An older message which newer users of ESP-r might not have seen.... A question on creating night ventilation: > The night ventilation has the following two conditions: > the zone temperatur > 24 ?C and > the ambient temperatur < zone temperatur > This control can be represented within a mass flow network as three nodes and two controlled connections as follows: a) an boundary node (wind pressure drive) "south", b) an intermediate node "interm" (unknown pressure) to support the zone T > 24C c) a node (unknown pressure) "zone" d) a component to represent the window (such as a air flow opening) e) a 2nd component (such as a slightly bigger air flow opening) for the zone T > 24C control logic f) a bypass (crack component) going from node south to node zone. This is needed so that when the control is active there is still a minor path from zone to an outside node (required for the solver). _____________________[ ]______________________ | crack | | | *------------[ ]--------------------*----------- [ ]---------------------* south window interm comp2 zone Node interm should be set to track the temperature of zone. You will need two flow controls. f) a flow control to act on the connection between south and interm for this control you want to sense the difference between the node south and the node zone g) a flow control to act on the connection between interm and zone for this control you want to sense the temperature of zone Only if both controls are satisfied will air flow from south to zone. Test this model on a short simulation where the boundary conditions and zone temperatures are likely to switch the controls. There is a separate reporting facility for graphing flow within the network in the results analyis package. Regards, ESRU From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Fri Sep 29 12:35:44 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand (clcv10)) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 12:35:44 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Fwd: [ESP-r] night cooling / ventilation (a revised response) References: <200408201145.08971.jon@esru.strath.ac.uk> Message-ID: This is a message sent out in 2004. Since that time flow controls have evolved and the message has been edited to reflect this.... A recent comment on flow components for night ventilation control: > A question on this control-scheme: > > Night ventilation often is realized via natural ventilation - > i.e. simply by an opened window during night. > For modelling an opened window usually a flow component is > required, which enables a bidirectional air flow (the > "door" component in ESP-r). > > For modelling a control scheme described below for natural > night ventilation (which can be realized by automatically > controlled windows) you have to split the window opening > into two flow components. > In which way should this be done for a bidirectional air > flow component representing an opened window ? > The are many flow components which can have a control applied to them e.g. air flow opengins, common orifice, constant volume flow component bi-directional controls. Control acts to alter the effective area or flow rate on these components. The bi-directional component control is applied to the width of the opening. Cracks are a component type which is not controlled. Many components can be further controlled via an additional parameter in the ON/OFF controller which stipulates the fraction of the nominal area/flow rate which is considered ON for a particular period. Thus you can define a component such as a constant volume flow device with a flow rate of, say 0.5m^3/s and then instruct it to be ON at 0.3 of this value during one period and 0.6 of this value during another period. You could use this to represent different ventilation rates for different occupancy levels without the need for setting up multiple fixed volume flow components in parallel. Regards, ESRU From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Fri Sep 29 12:42:33 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand (clcv10)) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 12:42:33 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Fwd: [ESP-r] a question on systems DDC control (from the archive) References: Message-ID: <87B9C95B-BF93-4D44-BD44-F5C5FF798047@esru.strath.ac.uk> This is an older message which might be of interest to new members of the community... A recent question on the background needed to use ESP-r with HVAC control.... Before embarking on the use of ESP-r to study DDC (direct digital control) and especially control of detailed plant systems components it is best to review the jargon and theory of control and control systems. Then ensure that you can build the zones/flow and/or systems networks and use them before you attempt to impose control upon it. The HVAC control within esp-r emulates some real DDC reponses, such as PID control, optimum start and duty cycle controllers, but again some knowledge of how these controllers operate in real circumstances is required to adequately define all parameters and to fine-tune such controls. Points of refernence for building plant networks and controlling include 'The modelling and simulation of energy management control systems' by J MacQueen (available from the publications section of the esru website) and the esp-r Data Model Manual (which should be in your distribution files /esru/esp-r/manual/DATA_MODEL). The source code related to control usually has commentary as to the theory and the logic being implemented. UPDATE: At a recent course in systems simulation a new set of documentation was produced which might be of interest to those wishing to explore systems simulation and control in ESP-r. Contact Nick Kelly for more information. -ESRU From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Fri Sep 29 12:52:26 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand (clcv10)) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 12:52:26 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Fwd: [ESP-r] how to start esp-r in text mode (updated message) References: Message-ID: This is an older message from the archive. It has been updated.... A recent question about running esp-r modules in text mode.... The executable `esp-r` is actually a small script that invokes an executable named prj. This script works fine for starting up in graphic mode on most computers and operating systems. Some machines do not interpret the script correctly for text mode and if you find this on your machine use the following: prj -mode text to start up in text mode without specifying a model or prj -mode text -file xx.cfg to start up in text mode and pointing to a specific model (substitute your own model configuration file for the xx.cfg) to find out all of the command line parameters you can use for any of the esp-r modules (prj/bps/res/ish etc.) use the following syntax. prj -help Remember that text mode is also useful if you want to run batch process or automate your simulation work. For examples have a look at the TEST ANALYSE SIMULATE.nc etc. scripts in the folder validation/QA/benchmark_model/cfg UPDATE: Those who are using the native windows version of ESP-r should note that text mode operation is not available when 'clicking on a model configuration file icon' because: a) this method of invocation defaults to graphic mode b) there is no 'text console' (in the Linux/Unix/MacOSX sense) to display the tool dialog. c) it may be possible for experts to run ESP-r modules within the MSYS command window but this has not been tested (truly sad geeks will understand the preceding phrase). -ESRU From ibeausol at NRCan.gc.ca Fri Sep 29 19:56:39 2006 From: ibeausol at NRCan.gc.ca (Beausoleil-Morrison, Ian) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 14:56:39 -0400 Subject: [esp-r] Re: handshaking mechanism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Monika, To learn more about the handshaking mechanisms between ESP-r's building thermal and CFD modelling domains, I recommend that you take a look at my Ph.D. thesis, which is available in the "publications" section of ESRU's web site. Chapter 5 is of particular relevance. Regards, - Ian ________________________________ From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Monika Hall Sent: September 12, 2006 09:06 To: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk Subject: [esp-r] handshaking mechanism Dear all, I'm new with ESP-r and I have a question about the handshaking mechanism at the CFD model. My model is a single office with a large window faced south, an air inlet on the north side and an air outlet on the south side. The office has an air change rate of 1.5 ac/h, witch means that free convection is dominant (Gr/Re^2 >> 1). I have installed a flow network and would like to install a CFD zone as well. What I would like to know is the temperature and air velocity field in the office. After reading some publications my choice is a k-e-model with: - Yuan log law for the vertical walls - Neumann log law for ceiling and floor. But I'm confused about the different possibilities of handshake mechanisms: - no 3 or 4 or 5 for internal vertical walls (Yuan) - no11 at the window (Yuan) and - no 6 or 7 at floor/ceiling (Neumann) Has anyone experience with the handshaking mechanism? I would be glad if someone could help me. Thank you. Best regards Monika -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20060929/1a133f01/attachment.html From g.ulukavak.harputlugil at gmail.com Mon Oct 2 12:47:37 2006 From: g.ulukavak.harputlugil at gmail.com (Gulsu Ulukavak Harputlugil) Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 14:47:37 +0300 Subject: [esp-r] a problem about revealing the thermal mass effect on energy consumption by Esp-r Message-ID: Hi All, I have a very simple problem. You know that for energy efficiency issues, the thermophysical properties of the materials that composed the envelope of building is very essential. In order to evaluate the amount of heat transfer from one side of the wall to other, the most common reference is "R-value," or *resistance* to heat flow. The higher the R-value of a material, the better it is at resisting heat loss (or heat gain). the arithmathically reverse of R-value is U-factor (or "U-value," as it is often called) which is a measure of the flow of heat?thermal transmittance?through a material, given a difference in temperature on either side. In short, for simple energy calculations we can guess that the lower u-value, the lower energy consumption. However the mass of the materials have very essential role during heat transfer even the u-value is constant. High mass materials (the specific heat and density of the materials show us the heat capacity of the materials, the high mass materials have high heat capacity) have special characteristics which are called time lag and degrement factor. Simply degrement factor reduces the peak loads and time lag delays the peak loads from one side of the wall to other. (for further information: http://www.buildinggreen.com/auth/article.cfm?fileName=070401a.xml ) Anyhow, I have a research on sensitivity analysis of the energy performance and one of the parameters that I evaluate is the effect of thermal mass. I have wall construction -from outside to inside-composed of plaster (2cm), insulation (PUR)(2cm), aerated concrete (20cm), plaster (2cm) and the u-value is 0.48 W/m2K. The specific heat of aerated concrete that I used is 840 J/kgK and the density is 500 kg/m3. I replaced aerated concrete with heavy mix concrete which has specific heat of 1000J/kgK and density of 2400 kg/m3. In order to make u-value constant (it should be constant otherwise I can not see the effect of thermal mass alone) I changed the dimension of concrete from 20cm to 30cm and insulation from 2cm to 6cm. Thus the u-value stays constant (0.48W/m2K) Now, I made the simulations (rest of the input parameters for both of the model is completely same). However heating energy calculated for aerated concrete is 3792.65 kWh, heavy mix concrete is 3781.27kWh. It is very interesting for me and I go one step further and use water as a wall construction. Water has a specific heat of 4180 J/kgK. Esp-r warned me that this value is too high but made the calculations. However the result is very close to the others, 3791.02 kWh. I checked the surface temperatures and heat storage as well but these are the same or very very close to each other. Probably I miss a step which is necessary to activate the effect of thermal mass. I also tried to use "define uncertanities" option of esp-r but I need a password to activate it.... Is there anyone to help me? Thanks in advance... Gulsu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061002/d013bde1/attachment.html From esp-r at h-rd.org Mon Oct 2 13:35:10 2006 From: esp-r at h-rd.org (esp-r at h-rd.org) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 14:35:10 +0200 Subject: [esp-r] Re: a problem about revealing the thermal mass effect on energy consumption by Esp-r In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1159792510.4521077e86254@webmail.dds.nl> Citeren Gulsu Ulukavak Harputlugil : > Hi All, > > I have a very simple problem. .... > Anyhow, I have a research on sensitivity analysis of the energy performance > and one of the parameters that I evaluate is the effect of thermal mass. I > have wall construction -from outside to inside-composed of plaster (2cm), > insulation (PUR)(2cm), aerated concrete (20cm), plaster (2cm) and the > u-value is 0.48 W/m2K. The specific heat of aerated concrete that I used is > 840 J/kgK and the density is 500 kg/m3. I replaced aerated concrete with > heavy mix concrete which has specific heat of 1000J/kgK and density of 2400 > kg/m3. In order to make u-value constant (it should be constant otherwise I > can not see the effect of thermal mass alone) I changed the dimension of > concrete from 20cm to 30cm and insulation from 2cm to 6cm. Thus the > u-value stays constant (0.48W/m2K) .... Dear Gulsu, if you just want to change the thermal mass, I would suggest that you do not change the construction, but that you go to the database menu and make a project copy of the materials database. Then you can add a material, e.g. aerated concrete - modified with the same physical properties as the origingal aerated concrete, but with a different specific heat. By substituting this material in your construction database, you can have simulatioens where only the thermal mass is different. yours, Marc Hoffmann esp-r at h-rd.org From Bernhard.Schweighofer at tugraz.at Mon Oct 2 15:26:38 2006 From: Bernhard.Schweighofer at tugraz.at (Bernhard Schweighofer) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 16:26:38 +0200 Subject: [esp-r] Re: a problem about revealing the thermal mass effect on energy consumption by Esp-r In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4521219E.3090306@tugraz.at> Gulsu Ulukavak Harputlugil wrote: > ...High mass materials ... reduces the peak loads ... You are trying to simulate possible energy reductions due to effects of thermal mass. As far as I understand this, a reduction of heating energy is only possible if a different source of energy is used, e.g. suns energy. So with a high thermal mass you can utilize (store) more sun energy over the day without overheating a room than with a low thermal mass wall. --> So, is there a window in your simulation where the sunlight can enter the room? Does the window get obscured, when the room temperature gets too high? regards Bernhard Schweighofer From woehrle at umt-ulm.de Mon Oct 2 16:24:26 2006 From: woehrle at umt-ulm.de (=?windows-1252?Q?Heiko_W=F6hrle?=) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 17:24:26 +0200 Subject: [esp-r] Re: [ESP-r] Light / casual gains / controlled In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45212F2A.90604@umt-ulm.de> Hello, i'm experience the same problems like those described earlier. Is there some documentation about the casual gains control? where do i link the switching-parameters of the cgc with the load-values of the operations? Best regards, Heiko W?hrle Umweltmanagement und -technik GmbH Lise-Meitner-Str. 15 D-89081 Ulm Tel. +49 731 / 50 99 55 2 Fax +49 731 / 50 99 50 0 > Hi everybody! > > Has anyone done extensive simulations with control of lighting casual > gains (.cgc)? The setting up of the control seems straightforward > enough, however, the results are giving me some trouble. > > With the trace facility I could see that the control seemed to be doing > what I expected. But, calling ?total lighting gain? and ?total > controlled gain? in res is causing large questions: As the only casual > gain I am controlling, I would have expected the two results to be the > same. Anyway, what I do get is something like ?total lighting gain? > totally ignores that it was controlled, the result graph (in res) is the > same as the casual gain input. The ?total controlled gain?, then again, > is negative (which seems strange) and is way more (-700 W) than the > total defined lighting gain (260 W). > > Does anybody have any experience with this? Thanks!! > > > > Best regards, > > Achim Geissler > > > > > From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Thu Oct 5 10:56:12 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand (clcv10)) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 10:56:12 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] [ESP-r] Problems with edges (from the archive) References: Message-ID: <4C992DA5-4134-478D-9858-015495713E83@esru.strath.ac.uk> Another classic message from the esp-r discussion archive.... A question about defining surface polygons... :: The new surface is composed by 16 vertices. The error message is similar to: :: "The edge between vertices 14 &15 of Surf-18 may be adjacent to a ::reversed surface" ::and so on 32 times. ::Any help (before I delete the whole zone and start from scratch) is welcome This message is written out when the project manager notices that edges of a surface have not been defined in the correct order in relation to adjacent surfaces. The key word is 'reversed surface'. ESP-r uses the order of the edges of a surface to determine which face of the polygon is facing out (the rule is anti-clockwise looking from the outside). A wireframe image may look correct, but to be sure you could use the viewing controls to toggle on surface normals (arrows should be pointing outwards). The most likely cause is that you are adding a surface with the order of the edges reversed so that its orientation is reversed. AND you do not have to delete a surface in order to correct this, look for the = 'transform' option at the bottom of the menu and in that you will find an option to 'invert'. -ESRU From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Thu Oct 5 11:07:29 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand (clcv10)) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 11:07:29 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] a strategy for reordering zones in ESP-r References: <1137168364.43c7cfec53919@cool.strath.ac.uk> Message-ID: <0B3E49B3-CACE-40EB-9EB5-1C1B87BB65AF@esru.strath.ac.uk> Those of you who have ever painted yourself into a corner and decided that you need to re-order the zones in an ESP-r model might consider the following strategy that was worked out by Aizaz Samuel. Before applying the strategy back up your model (those running ESP-r on a Linux / Sun / Mac or on a Windows box under Cygwin can use the 'archive' facility in the top level menu of the project manager to create a 'tar' format archive file of all the files referenced in the model). Next generate a QA report for the model and print it out so that you can have a reference of the assumptions and relationships within the model. If you have edited the model configuration file to impose a different ordering of zones then you can apply the following strategy... --------------------- The following information may be useful in other instances where zones need to be reordered. I did all the following steps in the same order 1. Topology needs to be rebuilt (run topology tool) 2. Mapping of air flow node - thermal zone needs to be updated (I changed the node ordering in cfg file and that seems to work fine) 3. Loops for thermal and air flow control need to be updated. 4. If present view factor files *.vwf need to be edited manually and old zone numbers need to be replaced by new ones 5. Shading files if present need to be modified (use the global option to rerun shading analysis for all zones) 6. Generate a new QA report for the model and check it against the original report to see if you have any outstanding issues. -ESRU From nick at esru.strath.ac.uk Thu Oct 5 11:17:09 2006 From: nick at esru.strath.ac.uk (Nicolas Kelly) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 11:17:09 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Re: [ESP-r] Problems with edges (from the archive) In-Reply-To: <4C992DA5-4134-478D-9858-015495713E83@esru.strath.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47BBFC6D736E714E8B490CEED8C1CCB4092955@BE-SCAM2.ds.strath.ac.uk> Dear ESP-r Developers, ESRU are considering holding another ESP-r developer's conference in 2007. This would feature presentations on such topics as: developments in the interface, simulation engine and results assessment; and integration with 3rd party software. We would also like to hold some sessions on the future strategy for ESP-r development: identifying priorities for development work, expanding the developer and user base, identifying funding sources for software development and making best use of ESP-r's open source status. A tentative location and date for the event would be Glasgow, Spring 2007. If you would be interested in attending such an event then please reply by return e-mail. Regards, -ESRU -----Original Message----- From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Jon Hand (clcv10) Sent: 05 October 2006 10:56 To: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk Subject: [esp-r] [ESP-r] Problems with edges (from the archive) Another classic message from the esp-r discussion archive.... A question about defining surface polygons... :: The new surface is composed by 16 vertices. The error message is similar to: :: "The edge between vertices 14 &15 of Surf-18 may be adjacent to a ::reversed surface" ::and so on 32 times. ::Any help (before I delete the whole zone and start from scratch) is welcome This message is written out when the project manager notices that edges of a surface have not been defined in the correct order in relation to adjacent surfaces. The key word is 'reversed surface'. ESP-r uses the order of the edges of a surface to determine which face of the polygon is facing out (the rule is anti-clockwise looking from the outside). A wireframe image may look correct, but to be sure you could use the viewing controls to toggle on surface normals (arrows should be pointing outwards). The most likely cause is that you are adding a surface with the order of the edges reversed so that its orientation is reversed. AND you do not have to delete a surface in order to correct this, look for the = 'transform' option at the bottom of the menu and in that you will find an option to 'invert'. -ESRU _______________________________________________ esp-r mailing list esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Thu Oct 5 17:29:36 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand (clcv10)) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 17:29:36 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Fwd: ESP-r why didn't we think of this earlier??? References: <200605261018.46084.jon@esru.strath.ac.uk> Message-ID: This is one of those "why didn't we think of this earlier" approaches.... Someone asked the following question: > I just have another quick query with regards to ESP-r. I'd like to > copy an > operations file (lighting, equipment and occupant gains) from one > zone to > another. Is this possible or will I have to re-input the data all over > again for the new zone? We answered the question with some directions about how to copy zone operations files or point to a common file. A true GEEK answer. BUT WHAT IF WE TOOK IT LITERALLY....a user is part way through attributing an office building model and about to start the definition of occupancy and lighting schedules in a new office which is almost the same as one that was previously defined. What if one of the first options given to the user was to import patterns of air flow schedules and/or casual gains from other zones? What if it gave the option to do a literal copy of the data or scale it for the volume and/or floor area of the new zone? And what if it took about six button clicks to do it? Actually, what if the user could import the air flow schedules from one zone and the casual gains from another? What if they could do one or the other or both to make it even more flexible to reuse existing information? Oh, and for QA purposes it should force you to edit the documentation of the new zone's schedule so everyone would know how/why/when this was done. That would be great. It would cut down on errors from using a calculator and then editing period data. It would cut down on the time needed to attribute a sequence of zones which are similar in use but slightly different in form. It would encourage reuse of relevant information from other project. I can think of several projects where this would have saved a lot of time and frustration. Drum roll.....its now real and is being tested. Ok, it took 12 ckicks (but no typing other than the changes in documentation to and 4 clicks were to confirm zone names) to import both flow schedules and casual gains and scale them for the new zone. Elapsed time less than a minute. I hope to get it past the formal testing and into the source code distribution ASAP. SO THE NEXT TIME someone poses a question, lets have a think about a useful evolution rather than a geek answer. -Jon Hand From woehrle at umt-ulm.de Fri Oct 6 16:24:11 2006 From: woehrle at umt-ulm.de (=?ISO-8859-15?Q?Heiko_W=F6hrle?=) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 17:24:11 +0200 Subject: [esp-r] res truncates file output Message-ID: <4526751B.6040204@umt-ulm.de> Hello everybody, i'm working with the gtk-windows-version 11.1 and i'm having trouble exporting my data because the last few days are always truncated. so it get's a bit difficult to export the data of the last december days... anyone else with the same experience and with a work-around? best regards, Heiko W?hrle Umweltmanagement und -technik GmbH Lise-Meitner-Str. 15 D-89081 Ulm Fon +49 731 / 50 99 55 2 Fax +49 731 / 50 99 50 0 From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Fri Oct 6 16:47:53 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand (clcv10)) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 16:47:53 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Re: res truncates file output In-Reply-To: <4526751B.6040204@umt-ulm.de> References: <4526751B.6040204@umt-ulm.de> Message-ID: <770D6F90-0113-456E-A292-16CDD303D1FD@esru.strath.ac.uk> A question about truncation of exported data.... > i'm working with the gtk-windows-version 11.1 and i'm having trouble > exporting my data because the last few days are always truncated. > so it > get's a bit difficult to export the data of the last december days... > This is the first report of this. The message does not stipulate whether this is a problem with models run over shorter periods or it happens for all models and for all reporting types. Some operating systems write to a buffer before writing to a file and do not complete the writing of the file until it is 'closed'. Or sometimes the OS waits some seconds and only flushs the buffer after doing other work. It might be necessary to not only toggle the export from file to display but to wait for a moment or (this is a guess) exit the results module. If that does not work writing the data into multiple files - for example one for the 1st 6 months of the year and then write out the rest of the data to a 2nd file. -ESRU From gialloneroverde at gmail.com Mon Oct 9 10:06:36 2006 From: gialloneroverde at gmail.com (giulio benincasa) Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 11:06:36 +0200 Subject: [esp-r] Learnix 4.0.2.iso Message-ID: <67666d10610090206t352215c5m465340d86f438e65@mail.gmail.com> Hello to all, I'm a italian consumer of the Esp-r software that have begun to use for the development of the thesis on the double skin facades starting to reference the Allan Dickson study; in my working activity I have continued to use it for applications to system Building/Plant limitedly however to the case of systems of plant with natural ventilation, this since the version Learnix-4.0.2.iso that has unloaded not has the plant database and I have besides corresponded even an absence of the CFD module; I want ask if is possible to find somehow ( even to payment ) a version of Learnix that don't introduce this lacks. I thank you for the attention, Best regards Ing.Giulio Benincasa From luisa.brotas at ineti.pt Mon Oct 9 12:59:09 2006 From: luisa.brotas at ineti.pt (Luisa B) Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2006 12:59:09 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Re: Learnix 4.0.2.iso In-Reply-To: <67666d10610090206t352215c5m465340d86f438e65@mail.gmail.com> References: <67666d10610090206t352215c5m465340d86f438e65@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <452A398D.8020102@ineti.pt> giulio benincasa wrote: > Hello to all, I'm a italian consumer of the Esp-r software that have > begun to use for the development of the thesis on the double skin > facades starting to reference the Allan Dickson study; in my working > activity I have continued to use it for applications to system > Building/Plant limitedly however to the case of systems of plant with > natural ventilation, this since the version Learnix-4.0.2.iso that has > unloaded not has the plant database and I have besides corresponded > even an absence of the CFD module; I want ask if is possible to find > somehow ( even to payment ) a version of Learnix that don't introduce > this lacks. > I thank you for the attention, Best regards > Ing.Giulio Benincasa > > _______________________________________________ > esp-r mailing list > esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r > > > Esta mensagem foi verificada por uma Webshield Appliance da McAfee. > INETI - DSIC > Dear Giulio, A new version of LEARNIX is under the agenda. We are just waiting for the new RADIANCE version to come out (hopefully soon, as mentioned by Greg Ward in the Radiance workshop last month). It will include the latest ESP-r (11.1 if no other version comes as well). The missing files introduced in this version of LEARNIX will be corrected. Sorry for the inconvenience. Best regards Luisa Brotas If you need to contact me in regards to LEARNIX please use the email l.brotas at londonmet.ac.uk From cj at cr-jay.ca Mon Oct 9 13:04:19 2006 From: cj at cr-jay.ca (Chris Jones) Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2006 08:04:19 -0400 Subject: [esp-r] Re: Fwd: ESP-r why didn't we think of this earlier??? In-Reply-To: References: <200605261018.46084.jon@esru.strath.ac.uk> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.2.20061009080408.04539eb0@mail.cr-jay.ca> Jon You're the greatest! At 12:29 PM 10/5/2006, Jon Hand (clcv10) wrote: >This is one of those "why didn't we think of this earlier" >approaches.... > >Someone asked the following question: > > > I just have another quick query with regards to ESP-r. I'd like to > > copy an > > operations file (lighting, equipment and occupant gains) from one > > zone to > > another. Is this possible or will I have to re-input the data all over > > again for the new zone? > >We answered the question with some directions about how to copy >zone operations files or point to a common file. A true GEEK answer. > > >BUT WHAT IF WE TOOK IT LITERALLY....a user is part way through >attributing an office building model and about to start the >definition of >occupancy and lighting schedules in a new office which is almost the >same as one that was previously defined. > >What if one of the first options given to the user was >to import patterns of air flow schedules and/or casual gains >from other zones? What if it gave the option to do a literal copy of the >data or scale it for the volume and/or floor area of the new zone? >And what if it took about six button clicks to do it? > >Actually, what if the user could import the air flow schedules from >one zone and the casual gains from another? What if they could do one >or the >other or both to make it even more flexible to reuse existing >information? Oh, and for QA purposes it should force you to >edit the documentation of the new zone's schedule so everyone >would know how/why/when this was done. > >That would be great. It would cut down on errors from using a >calculator and then editing period data. It would cut down >on the time needed to attribute a sequence of zones which are similar >in use but slightly different in form. It would encourage reuse of >relevant information from other project. I can think of several projects >where this would have saved a lot of time and frustration. > >Drum roll.....its now real and is being tested. Ok, it took 12 ckicks >(but >no typing other than the changes in documentation to and 4 clicks >were to confirm zone names) to import both flow schedules and >casual gains and scale them for the new zone. Elapsed time less >than a minute. > >I hope to get it past the formal testing and into the source code >distribution ASAP. > >SO THE NEXT TIME someone poses a question, lets have a think >about a useful evolution rather than a geek answer. > >-Jon Hand > > > >_______________________________________________ >esp-r mailing list >esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk >http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r Chris Jones 14 Oneida Avenue Toronto, ON M5J 2E3. Tel. 416-203-7465 Fax. 416-946-1005 From oliver.bucks at club-internet.fr Mon Oct 9 16:40:09 2006 From: oliver.bucks at club-internet.fr (Oliver Bucks) Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 17:40:09 +0200 Subject: [esp-r] Re: Fwd: ESP-r why didn't we think of this earlier??? References: <200605261018.46084.jon@esru.strath.ac.uk> <6.1.1.1.2.20061009080408.04539eb0@mail.cr-jay.ca> Message-ID: <000e01c6ebb9$342a1c90$f400a8c0@olli> Yes, I concur Jon, I am grinning at the prospect of no more copying and pasting in operations files. Thanks, or MERCI - as the french say... Olli Bucks > Jon > You're the greatest! > > At 12:29 PM 10/5/2006, Jon Hand (clcv10) wrote: > >>This is one of those "why didn't we think of this earlier" >>approaches.... >> >>Someone asked the following question: >> >> > I just have another quick query with regards to ESP-r. I'd like to >> > copy an >> > operations file (lighting, equipment and occupant gains) from one >> > zone to >> > another. Is this possible or will I have to re-input the data all over >> > again for the new zone? >> >>We answered the question with some directions about how to copy >>zone operations files or point to a common file. A true GEEK answer. >> >> >>BUT WHAT IF WE TOOK IT LITERALLY....a user is part way through >>attributing an office building model and about to start the >>definition of >>occupancy and lighting schedules in a new office which is almost the >>same as one that was previously defined. >> >>What if one of the first options given to the user was >>to import patterns of air flow schedules and/or casual gains >>from other zones? What if it gave the option to do a literal copy of the >>data or scale it for the volume and/or floor area of the new zone? >>And what if it took about six button clicks to do it? >> >>Actually, what if the user could import the air flow schedules from >>one zone and the casual gains from another? What if they could do one >>or the >>other or both to make it even more flexible to reuse existing >>information? Oh, and for QA purposes it should force you to >>edit the documentation of the new zone's schedule so everyone >>would know how/why/when this was done. >> >>That would be great. It would cut down on errors from using a >>calculator and then editing period data. It would cut down >>on the time needed to attribute a sequence of zones which are similar >>in use but slightly different in form. It would encourage reuse of >>relevant information from other project. I can think of several projects >>where this would have saved a lot of time and frustration. >> >>Drum roll.....its now real and is being tested. Ok, it took 12 ckicks >>(but >>no typing other than the changes in documentation to and 4 clicks >>were to confirm zone names) to import both flow schedules and >>casual gains and scale them for the new zone. Elapsed time less >>than a minute. >> >>I hope to get it past the formal testing and into the source code >>distribution ASAP. >> >>SO THE NEXT TIME someone poses a question, lets have a think >>about a useful evolution rather than a geek answer. >> >>-Jon Hand >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>esp-r mailing list >>esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk >>http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r > > > Chris Jones > 14 Oneida Avenue > Toronto, ON M5J 2E3. > Tel. 416-203-7465 > Fax. 416-946-1005 > > > > _______________________________________________ > esp-r mailing list > esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.13.1/466 - Release Date: 07/10/2006 > > From oliver.bucks at club-internet.fr Mon Oct 9 18:13:41 2006 From: oliver.bucks at club-internet.fr (Oliver Bucks) Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 19:13:41 +0200 Subject: [esp-r] Simulating solar sewage drying References: <4526751B.6040204@umt-ulm.de> <770D6F90-0113-456E-A292-16CDD303D1FD@esru.strath.ac.uk> Message-ID: <000e01c6ebc6$45310410$f400a8c0@olli> Dear all, I have ben asked to simulate a greenhouse in which treated sewage slugde will be dried by incoming solar radiation and ventilation at ambient temperature. I have no idea if ESP-R has the capacity to integrate the drying of material (with regards to the effects to temperatures, hydrometrics) The building part of the simulation shouldn't pose a problem, it is the input of the sewage sludge's physiometrics and the possiblity of calculating the scicity (percentage dryness) in time of the sludge which is giving me worries. I noticed that there is no possibility to introduce the humidity of a material in the materials' database, but have also noticed a control which makes reference to 'wet opaque surface' and 'swimming pool'...... Are there any ESP-R users who have simulated the drying of substances in ESP-R models, and have they encountered any problems (if so, how did they get round them !!) ? Many thanks in advance, Olli Bucks Paris From oliver.bucks at club-internet.fr Tue Oct 10 09:05:17 2006 From: oliver.bucks at club-internet.fr (Oliver Bucks) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 10:05:17 +0200 Subject: [esp-r] Simulating solar sewage drying Message-ID: <000a01c6ec42$d305fee0$f400a8c0@olli> Dear all, I have ben asked to simulate a greenhouse in which treated sewage slugde will be dried by incoming solar radiation and ventilation at ambient temperature. I have no idea if ESP-R has the capacity to integrate the drying of material (with regards to the effects to temperatures, hydrometrics) The building part of the simulation shouldn't pose a problem, it is the input of the sewage sludge's physiometrics and the possiblity of calculating the scicity (percentage dryness) in time of the sludge which is giving me worries. I noticed that there is no possibility to introduce the humidity of a material in the materials' database, but have also noticed a control which makes reference to 'wet opaque surface' and 'swimming pool'...... Are there any ESP-R users who have simulated the drying of substances in ESP-R models, and have they encountered any problems (if so, how did they get round them !!) ? Many thanks in advance, Olli Bucks Paris Dear ASPAM - here you bloody go. ASPAM=antispamwpk42 From esp-r at h-rd.org Tue Oct 10 19:29:47 2006 From: esp-r at h-rd.org (esp-r at h-rd.org) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 20:29:47 +0200 Subject: [esp-r] Re: Simulating solar sewage drying In-Reply-To: <000a01c6ec42$d305fee0$f400a8c0@olli> References: <000a01c6ec42$d305fee0$f400a8c0@olli> Message-ID: <1160504987.452be69bd93f5@webmail.dds.nl> Dear Oliver, I would be reluctant to try to model drying of sludge accurately in a model like esp-r. I would guess that you can model part of the drying approximately, but that you need more specialized models for accurate prediction. As long as the sludge acts as a fluid, the drying is basically limited by the incoming energy, but when the sludge becomes dryer, it behaves as a porous medium, containing solid and fluid. This phase is much harder to model and you need a specialized drying model. yours sincerely, Marc Hoffmann esp-r at h-rd.org Citeren Oliver Bucks : > > > Dear all, > > I have ben asked to simulate a greenhouse in which treated sewage slugde > will > be > dried by incoming solar radiation and ventilation at ambient temperature. > > I have no idea if ESP-R has the capacity to integrate the drying of material > (with regards to the effects to temperatures, hydrometrics) > > The building part of the simulation shouldn't pose a problem, it is the > input > of > the sewage sludge's physiometrics and the possiblity of calculating the > scicity > (percentage dryness) in time of the sludge which is giving me worries. > > I noticed that there is no possibility to introduce the humidity of a > material > in the materials' database, but have also noticed a control which makes > reference to 'wet opaque surface' and 'swimming pool'...... > > Are there any ESP-R users who have simulated the drying of substances in > ESP-R > models, and have they encountered any problems (if so, how did they get > round > them !!) ? > > Many thanks in advance, > > Olli Bucks > > Paris From oliver.bucks at club-internet.fr Wed Oct 11 09:02:57 2006 From: oliver.bucks at club-internet.fr (Oliver Bucks) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 10:02:57 +0200 Subject: [esp-r] Re: Simulating solar sewage drying Message-ID: <002001c6ed0b$a9d612c0$f400a8c0@olli> Dear Marc (and all), Many thanks. I had the same feeling myself - I do not consider myself an experienced (or capable) ESP-R user, but I have started to understand a little bit about it..... The problem is not limited to the internal temperatures within a solar green-house drying affair, but also to the iterative relationship between the RH, air internal air temp., sludge surface temp. (function of incoming SW radiation, evaporation rates..).......it's all very linked. Thankyou for your reply, it confirms my own (less founded) feelings. Olli Bucks ps. If an approximation of the effect of a free-floating humidity source within a building were to be taken into account in ESP-R, and to concentrate upon the Building aspects of a design, how would you go about it ? I saw something called "1D moisture gridding", but I think that's something to do with mould proliferation. Could it be 'inventively' used ? I also saw a humidifyer component in the mass-flow menus (which I've never incorporated in a problem before). If I gave it a slightly larger surface area than the sludge - to take into account the rugosity of the sludge surface - could I leave it in 'free-floating' mode (evaporation only by wind and sloar input) ? Olli From esp-r at h-rd.org Wed Oct 11 09:46:23 2006 From: esp-r at h-rd.org (esp-r at h-rd.org) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 10:46:23 +0200 Subject: [esp-r] research opportunities involving esp-r Message-ID: <1160556383.452caf5fed331@webmail.dds.nl> Dear esp-r Users and Developers, during the last months I have been working with esp-r on a research project. The project is going to end soon, but I would like to continue to work with esp-r. I have some questions to you about future research and development opportunities involving esp-r: 1) Later this year the European research framework programme (FP7) starts. Are there people or groups considering to participate? I would be very interested in such opportunities. 2) Do you know of upcoming research projects where esp-r plays an important role? To give you some background: I operate a small research and development company, mainly involving simulation projects. For the next year(s) I am looking for new opportunities to participate in research and/or development projects. yours sincerely, Marc Hoffmann esp-r at h-rd.org http://www.h-rd.org From Monika.Hall at josef-gartner.ch Wed Oct 11 15:31:35 2006 From: Monika.Hall at josef-gartner.ch (Monika Hall) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 16:31:35 +0200 Subject: [esp-r] plant: air cooling coil Message-ID: Dear all, have anybody worked with the plant component " air cooling coil, ref. no 4"? My model works fine with the plant component " air heating coil, ref. no 5", but when I change the heating coil into a cooling coil the model does not work anymore. I use the same controller for heating/cooling coil: controller type a) senses dry bulb -> actuates flux Control law b) P,PI,PID for type 0,2,4... I use the same settings for heating/cooling, I only change the setpoints. The error code is: CMP04C: invalid control data for component 2: 2000 with 2: Cooling coil and 2000: max htg/clg cap [W] Which setting is the right one for a cooling coil? Could somebody help me? Best regards Monika -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061011/5ddc6376/attachment.html From AFerguso at NRCan.gc.ca Wed Oct 11 15:37:44 2006 From: AFerguso at NRCan.gc.ca (Ferguson, Alex) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 10:37:44 -0400 Subject: [esp-r] Re: plant: air cooling coil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Monika, The cooling coil model (CMP04) expects the control signal to be negative (i.e. -2000 for a 2000 W cooling duty.) - Alex ________________________________ From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Monika Hall Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 10:32 To: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk Subject: [esp-r] plant: air cooling coil Dear all, have anybody worked with the plant component " air cooling coil, ref. no 4"? My model works fine with the plant component " air heating coil, ref. no 5", but when I change the heating coil into a cooling coil the model does not work anymore. I use the same controller for heating/cooling coil: controller type a) senses dry bulb -> actuates flux Control law b) P,PI,PID for type 0,2,4... I use the same settings for heating/cooling, I only change the setpoints. The error code is: CMP04C: invalid control data for component 2: 2000 with 2: Cooling coil and 2000: max htg/clg cap [W] Which setting is the right one for a cooling coil? Could somebody help me? Best regards Monika -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061011/3786d262/attachment.html From Monika.Hall at josef-gartner.ch Thu Oct 12 12:13:28 2006 From: Monika.Hall at josef-gartner.ch (Monika Hall) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 13:13:28 +0200 Subject: [esp-r] Re: plant: air cooling coil Message-ID: Hi Alex and all other, the first view was ok with a negative flux, I changed it in the ctl file. But when I changed it per menu, I got the error message, that the value have to be > 0. Additionally there must be something wrong, because I can not reach the setpoint temperature. I would like to cool a room with a cooling coil, if the room air temperature is higher then 26?C. The only way to handle the air temperature is due to variation of the cooling flux, but this is dissatisfying. On the other side, the case with heating works fine. The heating coil heats, when the room air temperature is below the setpoint of 20?C. Does anybody know if there is a possibility to set a temperature range for the heating/cooling coil? P.e. the temperature of the heating coil should be between 20 - 40?C and for the cooling coil between 16 - 24?C. Best regards Monika _____ From: Ferguson, Alex [mailto:AFerguso at NRCan.gc.ca] Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 4:38 PM To: Monika Hall; esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk Subject: RE: [esp-r] plant: air cooling coil Hi Monika, The cooling coil model (CMP04) expects the control signal to be negative (i.e. -2000 for a 2000 W cooling duty.) - Alex _____ From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Monika Hall Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 10:32 To: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk Subject: [esp-r] plant: air cooling coil Dear all, have anybody worked with the plant component " air cooling coil, ref. no 4"? My model works fine with the plant component " air heating coil, ref. no 5", but when I change the heating coil into a cooling coil the model does not work anymore. I use the same controller for heating/cooling coil: controller type a) senses dry bulb -> actuates flux Control law b) P,PI,PID for type 0,2,4... I use the same settings for heating/cooling, I only change the setpoints. The error code is: CMP04C: invalid control data for component 2: 2000 with 2: Cooling coil and 2000: max htg/clg cap [W] Which setting is the right one for a cooling coil? Could somebody help me? Best regards Monika -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061012/0de399c0/attachment.html From nick at esru.strath.ac.uk Thu Oct 12 13:51:41 2006 From: nick at esru.strath.ac.uk (Nicolas Kelly) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 13:51:41 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Re: plant: air cooling coil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <47BBFC6D736E714E8B490CEED8C1CCB4092971@BE-SCAM2.ds.strath.ac.uk> Dear Monica, For the P,PI or PID controller in set the 'mode' to a negative value (usually -1). The cooling flux should be specified as a positive value as it is negated in the cooling controller. To set an acceptable temperature range for the cooling coil adjust the 'throttling range' control parameters. The coil will operate proportionally between setpoint +/- 0.5*throttling range. So to control between 20 and 40 the set point is 30 and the throttling range is 20. Note that with HVAC modelling you will have some excursions from the desired values - you are modelling non-ideal processes and non-ideal controllers. Further, proportional control always has an 'offset' error, the size of which usually depends upon the size of the throttling range and the capacity of the component being controlled. Regards, Nick Kelly on behalf of ESRU ******************************* Dr Nick Kelly RCUK Academic Fellow Energy Systems Research Unit Institute for Energy and Environment University of Strathclyde 75 Montrose St Glasgow G1 1XJ t: +44(0)141 548 2854 f: +44(0)141 552 5105 e: nick at esru.strath.ac.uk ******************************* ________________________________ From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Monika Hall Sent: 12 October 2006 12:13 To: Ferguson, Alex; esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk Subject: [esp-r] Re: plant: air cooling coil Hi Alex and all other, the first view was ok with a negative flux, I changed it in the ctl file. But when I changed it per menu, I got the error message, that the value have to be > 0. Additionally there must be something wrong, because I can not reach the setpoint temperature. I would like to cool a room with a cooling coil, if the room air temperature is higher then 26?C. The only way to handle the air temperature is due to variation of the cooling flux, but this is dissatisfying. On the other side, the case with heating works fine. The heating coil heats, when the room air temperature is below the setpoint of 20?C. Does anybody know if there is a possibility to set a temperature range for the heating/cooling coil? P.e. the temperature of the heating coil should be between 20 - 40?C and for the cooling coil between 16 - 24?C. Best regards Monika ________________________________ From: Ferguson, Alex [mailto:AFerguso at NRCan.gc.ca] Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 4:38 PM To: Monika Hall; esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk Subject: RE: [esp-r] plant: air cooling coil Hi Monika, The cooling coil model (CMP04) expects the control signal to be negative (i.e. -2000 for a 2000 W cooling duty.) - Alex ________________________________ From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Monika Hall Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 10:32 To: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk Subject: [esp-r] plant: air cooling coil Dear all, have anybody worked with the plant component " air cooling coil, ref. no 4"? My model works fine with the plant component " air heating coil, ref. no 5", but when I change the heating coil into a cooling coil the model does not work anymore. I use the same controller for heating/cooling coil: controller type a) senses dry bulb -> actuates flux Control law b) P,PI,PID for type 0,2,4... I use the same settings for heating/cooling, I only change the setpoints. The error code is: CMP04C: invalid control data for component 2: 2000 with 2: Cooling coil and 2000: max htg/clg cap [W] Which setting is the right one for a cooling coil? Could somebody help me? Best regards Monika -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061012/e40686f7/attachment-0001.html From nuno.fernandes at mec.ua.pt Fri Oct 13 15:15:10 2006 From: nuno.fernandes at mec.ua.pt (Nuno Fernandes) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 15:15:10 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Modelling Phase Change Materials Message-ID: <000601c6eed1$fe2f0df0$9b7da8c0@acer6f41f6f6c8> Dear all esp-r users, I?m starting to model a project, which will include in its constructions, phase change materials. My question is related with the modelling of PCMs in esp-r. Does anyone have notes or tips to give me? I tried to model it but I haven?t any good results:-(. Can someone help me? Thanks in advance. Best regards, Nuno Fernandes ################################################# Nuno Tiago Afonso Fernandes Universidade de Aveiro Departamento de Engenharia Mec?nica Campus Universit?rio de Santiago 3810-193 Aveiro Portugal Tel.: +351 234 370 830 nuno.fernandes at mec.ua.pt www.ua.pt ########################################################## -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061013/f530d9c5/attachment.html From dariusz.heim at p.lodz.pl Fri Oct 13 17:41:12 2006 From: dariusz.heim at p.lodz.pl (Dariusz Heim) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 18:41:12 +0200 Subject: [esp-r] Re: Modelling Phase Change Materials References: <000601c6eed1$fe2f0df0$9b7da8c0@acer6f41f6f6c8> Message-ID: <002f01c6eee6$64c7c3e0$4dd533d4@DarekH> Dear Nuno, I was working on PCM in ESP-r a few years ago and it works. I not sure how it is going just now. Please, let me know what is your version of ESP and than I will try to help you. with best regards, Darek ----- Original Message ----- From: Nuno Fernandes To: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 4:15 PM Subject: [esp-r] Modelling Phase Change Materials Dear all esp-r users, I'm starting to model a project, which will include in its constructions, phase change materials. My question is related with the modelling of PCMs in esp-r. Does anyone have notes or tips to give me? I tried to model it but I haven't any good resultsL. Can someone help me? Thanks in advance. Best regards, Nuno Fernandes ################################################# Nuno Tiago Afonso Fernandes Universidade de Aveiro Departamento de Engenharia Mec?nica Campus Universit?rio de Santiago 3810-193 Aveiro Portugal Tel.: +351 234 370 830 nuno.fernandes at mec.ua.pt www.ua.pt ########################################################## ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ esp-r mailing list esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061013/f71e1484/attachment.html From nuno.fernandes at mec.ua.pt Mon Oct 16 00:19:36 2006 From: nuno.fernandes at mec.ua.pt (Nuno Fernandes) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 00:19:36 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] FW: Re: Modelling Phase Change Materials Message-ID: <000a01c6f0b0$61f75fb0$5300a8c0@acer6f41f6f6c8> Hello Darek, Thanks. My version of esp-r system is 10.13. Project Manager is version 5.6, January 2006. Regards, Nuno Fernandes ################################################# Nuno Tiago Afonso Fernandes Universidade de Aveiro Departamento de Engenharia Mec?nica Campus Universit?rio de Santiago 3810-193 Aveiro Portugal Tel.: +351 234 370 830 nuno.fernandes at mec.ua.pt www.ua.pt ########################################################## _____ From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Dariusz Heim Sent: sexta-feira, 13 de Outubro de 2006 17:41 To: Nuno Fernandes; esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk Subject: [esp-r] Re: Modelling Phase Change Materials Dear Nuno, I was working on PCM in ESP-r a few years ago and it works. I not sure how it is going just now. Please, let me know what is your version of ESP and than I will try to help you. with best regards, Darek ----- Original Message ----- From: Nuno Fernandes To: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 4:15 PM Subject: [esp-r] Modelling Phase Change Materials Dear all esp-r users, I?m starting to model a project, which will include in its constructions, phase change materials. My question is related with the modelling of PCMs in esp-r. Does anyone have notes or tips to give me? I tried to model it but I haven?t any good results:-(. Can someone help me? Thanks in advance. Best regards, Nuno Fernandes ################################################# Nuno Tiago Afonso Fernandes Universidade de Aveiro Departamento de Engenharia Mec?nica Campus Universit?rio de Santiago 3810-193 Aveiro Portugal Tel.: +351 234 370 830 nuno.fernandes at mec.ua.pt www.ua.pt ########################################################## _____ _______________________________________________ esp-r mailing list esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061016/5bbafa67/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: ATT00008.txt Url: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061016/5bbafa67/attachment.txt From Monika.Hall at josef-gartner.ch Tue Oct 17 10:42:59 2006 From: Monika.Hall at josef-gartner.ch (Monika Hall) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 11:42:59 +0200 Subject: [esp-r] Re: plant: air cooling coil Message-ID: Dear Nick and all other, thank you for you reply. Sorry, that I could not answer until now. With your mail I'm back to zero. With a positive cooling flux the program does not start to simulate (error CMP04C). My settings are as follows and they do not work with a cooling coil but they work with a heating coil: * Plant Cooling coil 1 # No. of loops * Control loops # senses dry bulb temperature in room. 1 0 0 0 # sensor # plant component 2:cooler @ node no. 1 -1 2 1 0 # actuator 0 # No. day types 1 365 # valid Sat-01-Jan - Sun-31-Dec 3 # No. of periods in day 0 1 0.000 # ctl type, law (PID flux control.), start @ 9. # No. of data items 1.00000 100.00000 0.00000 22.00000 6.00000 1.00000 1080.00000 1.00000 70.00000 ... and so on Definition of plat component #-> 2, air cooling coil; 1 node model ; flux control cooler 4 1 # Component has 1 control variable(s). 10000. 3 15.000 1000.0 3.5000 What should I do? Best regards Monika _____ From: Nicolas Kelly [mailto:nick at esru.strath.ac.uk] Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 2:52 PM To: Monika Hall; Ferguson, Alex; esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk Subject: RE: [esp-r] Re: plant: air cooling coil Dear Monica, For the P,PI or PID controller in set the 'mode' to a negative value (usually -1). The cooling flux should be specified as a positive value as it is negated in the cooling controller. To set an acceptable temperature range for the cooling coil adjust the 'throttling range' control parameters. The coil will operate proportionally between setpoint +/- 0.5*throttling range. So to control between 20 and 40 the set point is 30 and the throttling range is 20. Note that with HVAC modelling you will have some excursions from the desired values - you are modelling non-ideal processes and non-ideal controllers. Further, proportional control always has an 'offset' error, the size of which usually depends upon the size of the throttling range and the capacity of the component being controlled. Regards, Nick Kelly on behalf of ESRU ******************************* Dr Nick Kelly RCUK Academic Fellow Energy Systems Research Unit Institute for Energy and Environment University of Strathclyde 75 Montrose St Glasgow G1 1XJ t: +44(0)141 548 2854 f: +44(0)141 552 5105 e: nick at esru.strath.ac.uk ******************************* _____ From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Monika Hall Sent: 12 October 2006 12:13 To: Ferguson, Alex; esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk Subject: [esp-r] Re: plant: air cooling coil Hi Alex and all other, the first view was ok with a negative flux, I changed it in the ctl file. But when I changed it per menu, I got the error message, that the value have to be > 0. Additionally there must be something wrong, because I can not reach the setpoint temperature. I would like to cool a room with a cooling coil, if the room air temperature is higher then 26?C. The only way to handle the air temperature is due to variation of the cooling flux, but this is dissatisfying. On the other side, the case with heating works fine. The heating coil heats, when the room air temperature is below the setpoint of 20?C. Does anybody know if there is a possibility to set a temperature range for the heating/cooling coil? P.e. the temperature of the heating coil should be between 20 - 40?C and for the cooling coil between 16 - 24?C. Best regards Monika _____ From: Ferguson, Alex [mailto:AFerguso at NRCan.gc.ca] Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 4:38 PM To: Monika Hall; esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk Subject: RE: [esp-r] plant: air cooling coil Hi Monika, The cooling coil model (CMP04) expects the control signal to be negative (i.e. -2000 for a 2000 W cooling duty.) - Alex _____ From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Monika Hall Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 10:32 To: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk Subject: [esp-r] plant: air cooling coil Dear all, have anybody worked with the plant component " air cooling coil, ref. no 4"? My model works fine with the plant component " air heating coil, ref. no 5", but when I change the heating coil into a cooling coil the model does not work anymore. I use the same controller for heating/cooling coil: controller type a) senses dry bulb -> actuates flux Control law b) P,PI,PID for type 0,2,4... I use the same settings for heating/cooling, I only change the setpoints. The error code is: CMP04C: invalid control data for component 2: 2000 with 2: Cooling coil and 2000: max htg/clg cap [W] Which setting is the right one for a cooling coil? Could somebody help me? Best regards Monika -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061017/82a58dfc/attachment-0001.html From nick at esru.strath.ac.uk Tue Oct 17 10:53:53 2006 From: nick at esru.strath.ac.uk (Nicolas Kelly) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 10:53:53 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Re: plant: air cooling coil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <47BBFC6D736E714E8B490CEED8C1CCB4092978@BE-SCAM2.ds.strath.ac.uk> Dear Monika - as I mentioned in my e-mail the mode should be -1, I notice that it is +1 in your file. So try changing the following 9. # No. of data items 1.00000 100.00000 0.00000 22.00000 6.00000 1.00000 1080.00000 1.00000 70.00000 To 9. # No. of data items -1.00000 100.00000 0.00000 22.00000 6.00000 1.00000 1080.00000 1.00000 70.00000 Also I see you are trying to model a PID controller - this is difficult - make sure you use a very short time step (I've used 1800 plant time steps/hour). I've also found that PID mode 2 works reasonably well. So you could also try: 9. # No. of data items -2.00000 100.00000 0.00000 22.00000 6.00000 1.00000 1080.00000 1.00000 70.00000 Let me know how you get on. Nick ******************************* Dr Nick Kelly RCUK Academic Fellow Energy Systems Research Unit Institute for Energy and Environment University of Strathclyde 75 Montrose St Glasgow G1 1XJ t: +44(0)141 548 2854 f: +44(0)141 552 5105 e: nick at esru.strath.ac.uk ******************************* ________________________________ From: Monika Hall [mailto:Monika.Hall at josef-gartner.ch] Sent: 17 October 2006 10:43 To: Nicolas Kelly; Ferguson, Alex; esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk Subject: RE: [esp-r] Re: plant: air cooling coil Dear Nick and all other, thank you for you reply. Sorry, that I could not answer until now. With your mail I'm back to zero. With a positive cooling flux the program does not start to simulate (error CMP04C). My settings are as follows and they do not work with a cooling coil but they work with a heating coil: * Plant Cooling coil 1 # No. of loops * Control loops # senses dry bulb temperature in room. 1 0 0 0 # sensor # plant component 2:cooler @ node no. 1 -1 2 1 0 # actuator 0 # No. day types 1 365 # valid Sat-01-Jan - Sun-31-Dec 3 # No. of periods in day 0 1 0.000 # ctl type, law (PID flux control.), start @ 9. # No. of data items 1.00000 100.00000 0.00000 22.00000 6.00000 1.00000 1080.00000 1.00000 70.00000 ... and so on Definition of plat component #-> 2, air cooling coil; 1 node model ; flux control cooler 4 1 # Component has 1 control variable(s). 10000. 3 15.000 1000.0 3.5000 What should I do? Best regards Monika ________________________________ From: Nicolas Kelly [mailto:nick at esru.strath.ac.uk] Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 2:52 PM To: Monika Hall; Ferguson, Alex; esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk Subject: RE: [esp-r] Re: plant: air cooling coil Dear Monica, For the P,PI or PID controller in set the 'mode' to a negative value (usually -1). The cooling flux should be specified as a positive value as it is negated in the cooling controller. To set an acceptable temperature range for the cooling coil adjust the 'throttling range' control parameters. The coil will operate proportionally between setpoint +/- 0.5*throttling range. So to control between 20 and 40 the set point is 30 and the throttling range is 20. Note that with HVAC modelling you will have some excursions from the desired values - you are modelling non-ideal processes and non-ideal controllers. Further, proportional control always has an 'offset' error, the size of which usually depends upon the size of the throttling range and the capacity of the component being controlled. Regards, Nick Kelly on behalf of ESRU ******************************* Dr Nick Kelly RCUK Academic Fellow Energy Systems Research Unit Institute for Energy and Environment University of Strathclyde 75 Montrose St Glasgow G1 1XJ t: +44(0)141 548 2854 f: +44(0)141 552 5105 e: nick at esru.strath.ac.uk ******************************* ________________________________ From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Monika Hall Sent: 12 October 2006 12:13 To: Ferguson, Alex; esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk Subject: [esp-r] Re: plant: air cooling coil Hi Alex and all other, the first view was ok with a negative flux, I changed it in the ctl file. But when I changed it per menu, I got the error message, that the value have to be > 0. Additionally there must be something wrong, because I can not reach the setpoint temperature. I would like to cool a room with a cooling coil, if the room air temperature is higher then 26?C. The only way to handle the air temperature is due to variation of the cooling flux, but this is dissatisfying. On the other side, the case with heating works fine. The heating coil heats, when the room air temperature is below the setpoint of 20?C. Does anybody know if there is a possibility to set a temperature range for the heating/cooling coil? P.e. the temperature of the heating coil should be between 20 - 40?C and for the cooling coil between 16 - 24?C. Best regards Monika ________________________________ From: Ferguson, Alex [mailto:AFerguso at NRCan.gc.ca] Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 4:38 PM To: Monika Hall; esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk Subject: RE: [esp-r] plant: air cooling coil Hi Monika, The cooling coil model (CMP04) expects the control signal to be negative (i.e. -2000 for a 2000 W cooling duty.) - Alex ________________________________ From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Monika Hall Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 10:32 To: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk Subject: [esp-r] plant: air cooling coil Dear all, have anybody worked with the plant component " air cooling coil, ref. no 4"? My model works fine with the plant component " air heating coil, ref. no 5", but when I change the heating coil into a cooling coil the model does not work anymore. I use the same controller for heating/cooling coil: controller type a) senses dry bulb -> actuates flux Control law b) P,PI,PID for type 0,2,4... I use the same settings for heating/cooling, I only change the setpoints. The error code is: CMP04C: invalid control data for component 2: 2000 with 2: Cooling coil and 2000: max htg/clg cap [W] Which setting is the right one for a cooling coil? Could somebody help me? Best regards Monika -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061017/d1b8790b/attachment-0001.html From Monika.Hall at josef-gartner.ch Tue Oct 17 11:58:33 2006 From: Monika.Hall at josef-gartner.ch (Monika Hall) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 12:58:33 +0200 Subject: [esp-r] Re: plant: air cooling coil Message-ID: Dear Nick, many thanks to you. It works now. With your info I noticed the clue in the help menu, too. Best regards Monika _____ From: Nicolas Kelly [mailto:nick at esru.strath.ac.uk] Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 11:54 AM To: Monika Hall; Ferguson, Alex; esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk Subject: RE: [esp-r] Re: plant: air cooling coil Dear Monika - as I mentioned in my e-mail the mode should be -1, I notice that it is +1 in your file. So try changing the following 9. # No. of data items 1.00000 100.00000 0.00000 22.00000 6.00000 1.00000 1080.00000 1.00000 70.00000 To 9. # No. of data items -1.00000 100.00000 0.00000 22.00000 6.00000 1.00000 1080.00000 1.00000 70.00000 Also I see you are trying to model a PID controller - this is difficult - make sure you use a very short time step (I've used 1800 plant time steps/hour). I've also found that PID mode 2 works reasonably well. So you could also try: 9. # No. of data items -2.00000 100.00000 0.00000 22.00000 6.00000 1.00000 1080.00000 1.00000 70.00000 Let me know how you get on. Nick ******************************* Dr Nick Kelly RCUK Academic Fellow Energy Systems Research Unit Institute for Energy and Environment University of Strathclyde 75 Montrose St Glasgow G1 1XJ t: +44(0)141 548 2854 f: +44(0)141 552 5105 e: nick at esru.strath.ac.uk ******************************* _____ From: Monika Hall [mailto:Monika.Hall at josef-gartner.ch] Sent: 17 October 2006 10:43 To: Nicolas Kelly; Ferguson, Alex; esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk Subject: RE: [esp-r] Re: plant: air cooling coil Dear Nick and all other, thank you for you reply. Sorry, that I could not answer until now. With your mail I'm back to zero. With a positive cooling flux the program does not start to simulate (error CMP04C). My settings are as follows and they do not work with a cooling coil but they work with a heating coil: * Plant Cooling coil 1 # No. of loops * Control loops # senses dry bulb temperature in room. 1 0 0 0 # sensor # plant component 2:cooler @ node no. 1 -1 2 1 0 # actuator 0 # No. day types 1 365 # valid Sat-01-Jan - Sun-31-Dec 3 # No. of periods in day 0 1 0.000 # ctl type, law (PID flux control.), start @ 9. # No. of data items 1.00000 100.00000 0.00000 22.00000 6.00000 1.00000 1080.00000 1.00000 70.00000 ... and so on Definition of plat component #-> 2, air cooling coil; 1 node model ; flux control cooler 4 1 # Component has 1 control variable(s). 10000. 3 15.000 1000.0 3.5000 What should I do? Best regards Monika _____ From: Nicolas Kelly [mailto:nick at esru.strath.ac.uk] Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 2:52 PM To: Monika Hall; Ferguson, Alex; esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk Subject: RE: [esp-r] Re: plant: air cooling coil Dear Monica, For the P,PI or PID controller in set the 'mode' to a negative value (usually -1). The cooling flux should be specified as a positive value as it is negated in the cooling controller. To set an acceptable temperature range for the cooling coil adjust the 'throttling range' control parameters. The coil will operate proportionally between setpoint +/- 0.5*throttling range. So to control between 20 and 40 the set point is 30 and the throttling range is 20. Note that with HVAC modelling you will have some excursions from the desired values - you are modelling non-ideal processes and non-ideal controllers. Further, proportional control always has an 'offset' error, the size of which usually depends upon the size of the throttling range and the capacity of the component being controlled. Regards, Nick Kelly on behalf of ESRU ******************************* Dr Nick Kelly RCUK Academic Fellow Energy Systems Research Unit Institute for Energy and Environment University of Strathclyde 75 Montrose St Glasgow G1 1XJ t: +44(0)141 548 2854 f: +44(0)141 552 5105 e: nick at esru.strath.ac.uk ******************************* _____ From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Monika Hall Sent: 12 October 2006 12:13 To: Ferguson, Alex; esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk Subject: [esp-r] Re: plant: air cooling coil Hi Alex and all other, the first view was ok with a negative flux, I changed it in the ctl file. But when I changed it per menu, I got the error message, that the value have to be > 0. Additionally there must be something wrong, because I can not reach the setpoint temperature. I would like to cool a room with a cooling coil, if the room air temperature is higher then 26?C. The only way to handle the air temperature is due to variation of the cooling flux, but this is dissatisfying. On the other side, the case with heating works fine. The heating coil heats, when the room air temperature is below the setpoint of 20?C. Does anybody know if there is a possibility to set a temperature range for the heating/cooling coil? P.e. the temperature of the heating coil should be between 20 - 40?C and for the cooling coil between 16 - 24?C. Best regards Monika _____ From: Ferguson, Alex [mailto:AFerguso at NRCan.gc.ca] Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 4:38 PM To: Monika Hall; esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk Subject: RE: [esp-r] plant: air cooling coil Hi Monika, The cooling coil model (CMP04) expects the control signal to be negative (i.e. -2000 for a 2000 W cooling duty.) - Alex _____ From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Monika Hall Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 10:32 To: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk Subject: [esp-r] plant: air cooling coil Dear all, have anybody worked with the plant component " air cooling coil, ref. no 4"? My model works fine with the plant component " air heating coil, ref. no 5", but when I change the heating coil into a cooling coil the model does not work anymore. I use the same controller for heating/cooling coil: controller type a) senses dry bulb -> actuates flux Control law b) P,PI,PID for type 0,2,4... I use the same settings for heating/cooling, I only change the setpoints. The error code is: CMP04C: invalid control data for component 2: 2000 with 2: Cooling coil and 2000: max htg/clg cap [W] Which setting is the right one for a cooling coil? Could somebody help me? Best regards Monika -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061017/5db78a48/attachment-0001.html From nuno.fernandes at mec.ua.pt Thu Oct 19 12:31:04 2006 From: nuno.fernandes at mec.ua.pt (Nuno Fernandes) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 12:31:04 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Ask for opinion Message-ID: <000001c6f372$117f8930$3c7da8c0@acer6f41f6f6c8> Dear all esp-r users, I?m starting to build a project and before I commit some errors, which will cost me time in the future I ask for yours opinion about one question. The doubt is related with geometry or multilayered constructions. In my model all zones have false ceiling and false floor. My question is, it?s better to zone this false ceiling and floor or include it in multilayered constructions? I have make a rapid lecture on chapter 2 of Prof J Clarke book and the conclusion that I take it?s that the energy balance equation of a single zone don?t enter in account with the thermal resistance of the air, contrary to what happens in multilayered constructions. Thanks all Best regards Nuno Fernandes ################################################# Nuno Tiago Afonso Fernandes Universidade de Aveiro Departamento de Engenharia Mec?nica Campus Universit?rio de Santiago 3810-193 Aveiro Portugal Tel.: +351 234 370 830 nuno.fernandes at mec.ua.pt www.ua.pt ########################################################## -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061019/a361e046/attachment.html From oliver.bucks at club-internet.fr Thu Oct 19 13:01:33 2006 From: oliver.bucks at club-internet.fr (Oliver Bucks) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 14:01:33 +0200 Subject: [esp-r] Simulating solar sewage drying References: <002001c6ed0b$a9d612c0$f400a8c0@olli> Message-ID: <002501c6f376$521bc540$f400a8c0@olli> Hello, The introduction : I Have been asked to simulate solar sludge drying. Given the answers I recieved previously on the same subject, it has been agreed that the exact behaviour of drying sewage sludge is not really the problem to be simulated. The aim is to model one or two designs (materials, thicknesses and orientations) in order to get the best. The aim is to design a decent envelope. However, the indicator chosen is the mass of water extracted from the sludge via evaporation per day as a function of simple weather and construction inputs. The question : Can someone please tell me how I can introduce an indoor, plane surface of water in a model so as the evaporations rates are automatically affected by the incoming solar radiation, water temperature and internal air temperature ? I saw a component calles "swimming pool" but am not experienced enough to understand how it might be put into use. Many thanks Olli Bucks From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Thu Oct 19 18:11:23 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand (clcv10)) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 18:11:23 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Re: Simulating solar sewage drying (something similar) In-Reply-To: <002501c6f376$521bc540$f400a8c0@olli> References: <002001c6ed0b$a9d612c0$f400a8c0@olli> <002501c6f376$521bc540$f400a8c0@olli> Message-ID: Those of you who are longer in the tooth might remember that ESRU had a visiting PhD from Malaysia who did research on solar driven wood drying and he implemented a model of how wood dried within ESP-r. Only real issue at the time was that machines were slow, the simulation needed to run for a four month period and the flow rates in the dryer were such that it required 3000 timesteps per hour on the building solver for the method to work. We wondered if the run would ever finish.... So something sort of related was done in the past (but by someone who had a detailed opinion as to how moisture transfer within green timber should be treated). Perhaps there is someone out there who has a similar knowledge about drying processes in another medium...... ;-) -Jon Hand From esp-r at h-rd.org Fri Oct 20 09:33:26 2006 From: esp-r at h-rd.org (esp-r at h-rd.org) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 10:33:26 +0200 Subject: [esp-r] Re: Simulating solar sewage drying In-Reply-To: <002501c6f376$521bc540$f400a8c0@olli> References: <002001c6ed0b$a9d612c0$f400a8c0@olli> <002501c6f376$521bc540$f400a8c0@olli> Message-ID: <1161333206.453889d65119a@webmail.dds.nl> Dear Oliver, When trying to simulate drying in an enclosure, a very important aspect is the ventilation regime. Basically you need to know the humidity of the air in order to calculate the evaporation. That in turn requires a coupling with a flow solver. Naturally you need to calculate the radiation, too. Also the properties of the sludge are very important: the albedo, if it is stirred or not, and other physical properties. In designing such a system, I think you would need to consult with an expert on the issue of sludge drying. There are different specific models available, although I do not know if they apply to your specific situation. If you just want to model the mass of water to be extracted, you could try a simple approach, calculating the potential evaporation, assuming "perfect" ventilation and water like properties for the sludge. Obviously such a model would be valid only approximately for very wet sludge. From the above it is clear that I think it is not sufficient to use only weather and construction as inputs. yours sincerely, Marc Hoffmann esp-r at h-rd.org Citeren Oliver Bucks : > Hello, > The introduction : > I Have been asked to simulate solar sludge drying. Given the answers I > recieved > previously on the same subject, it has been agreed that the exact behaviour > of > drying sewage sludge is not really the problem to be simulated. The aim is to > model one or two designs (materials, thicknesses and orientations) in order > to > get the best. The aim is to design a decent envelope. > > However, the indicator chosen is the mass of water extracted from the sludge > via > evaporation per day as a function of simple weather and construction inputs. > > The question : > Can someone please tell me how I can introduce an indoor, plane surface of > water > in a model so as the evaporations rates are automatically affected by the > incoming solar radiation, water temperature and internal air temperature ? > > I saw a component calles "swimming pool" but am not experienced enough to > understand how it might be put into use. > > Many thanks > > Olli Bucks > > > _______________________________________________ > esp-r mailing list > esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r > Marc Hoffmann esp-r at h-rd.org http://www.h-rd.org From AL864728 at DAL.CA Mon Oct 23 15:37:39 2006 From: AL864728 at DAL.CA (Ali Syed) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 11:37:39 -0300 Subject: [esp-r] Non-homogeneous glazings and .TMC files Message-ID: <20061023113739.c1xyy0f5psz4swgw@my4.dal.ca> Hi All, I have a question regarding defining a zone with non-homogeneous glazings. In one of the model, I have One Pane and Two Pane windows distributed on the four sides of the house. The .TMC file mismatches with the .MLC databases and .CON file, halting the simulation. The problem appears to be that the .TMC file appears to read (or match) the very first glazing type, but gives a mismatch error for the remaining window types. Is there a way around this? Can we manually add to the TMC file some indicies to recognize the other window types? Any sample .TMC files that have more than one glazing type would be helpful. Thanks From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Mon Oct 23 15:53:20 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand (clcv10)) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 15:53:20 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Re: Non-homogeneous glazings and .TMC files In-Reply-To: <20061023113739.c1xyy0f5psz4swgw@my4.dal.ca> References: <20061023113739.c1xyy0f5psz4swgw@my4.dal.ca> Message-ID: <3DC805F7-CFF0-4EA9-80EA-A514B59839A4@esru.strath.ac.uk> A recent question on different windows in a zone.... > I have a question regarding defining a zone with non-homogeneous > glazings. > In one of the model, I have One Pane and Two Pane windows > distributed on the > four sides of the house. > The .TMC file mismatches with the .MLC databases and .CON file, > halting the > simulation. > > The problem appears to be that the .TMC file appears to read (or > match) the very first glazing type, but gives a mismatch error for the > remaining window types. > > Is there a way around this? Can we manually add to the TMC file > some indicies to > recognize the other window types? > > Any sample .TMC files that have more than one glazing type would be > helpful. > It it likely that the zone construction and zone tmc files have gotten confused and/or corrupted. Usual best approach is to delete the zone tmc file(s) and then rebuld the zone construction and tmc files. This often corrects problems. If that does not do it try removing both the zone construction and zone tmc files and then creating them again (use the 'via surface attributes' option). The above advise assumes that all of the zone surfaces are fully attributed and that the optical properties needed for all of the glazings can be found in the optical database associated with the model. -ESRU From nuno.fernandes at mec.ua.pt Wed Oct 25 12:29:22 2006 From: nuno.fernandes at mec.ua.pt (Nuno Fernandes) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 12:29:22 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Increse nodes in multilayer constructions Message-ID: <000001c6f828$d3412500$3a7ca8c0@acer6f41f6f6c8> Hello all, Some days ago I post a message regarding problems with phase change materials, I have already cross my initial problems, it's seems that the advanced materials file created with the model have one problem writhing a value. But it works now. However I have another question. When modelling PCMs, its necessary to define the layer properties in the multilayer constructions file, until here no problems. But when I define the active material (PCM) in the advanced components module it is necessary to define the node were it is associated. Well my problem starts here. I have read that the proper way of putting them in the layer is in the middle node but, the system, by default, only define two nodes for each layer. How can I tell the system to define, unless 3 nodes in each layer? I read too, that a better subdivision of the layer will increase accuracy. Thanks in advance. Best regards, Nuno Fernandes ################################################# Nuno Tiago Afonso Fernandes Universidade de Aveiro Departamento de Engenharia Mec?nica Campus Universit?rio de Santiago 3810-193 Aveiro Portugal Tel.: +351 234 370 830 nuno.fernandes at mec.ua.pt www.ua.pt ########################################################## -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061025/84a6baa9/attachment.html From horsford at eastlink.ca Wed Oct 25 21:08:45 2006 From: horsford at eastlink.ca (Andrew Horsford) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 17:08:45 -0300 Subject: [esp-r] Connecting two zones with a stairwell Message-ID: <003d01c6f871$60af9370$b458de18@ODIN> Hello all, I'm new to ESP-r and as a first run I thought I'd make a model of my house and so far, so good: the ground floor is complete as far as walls, windows & doors. I now want to add the stairway from the ground floor to the top floor but I'm not sure how to proceed. Should I just create a hole in the ceiling/floor and put in a 45? slope leading up? I know it might not really matter & in terms of heat-flow it's probably the same as a hole in the ceiling/floor, but I wanted to check in case there's some standard way of doing this..... Thanks for your help, Andrew Horsford -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061025/c816be1e/attachment.html From horsford at eastlink.ca Wed Oct 25 22:19:23 2006 From: horsford at eastlink.ca (Andrew Horsford) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 18:19:23 -0300 Subject: [esp-r] Connecting two zones with a stairwell References: <003d01c6f871$60af9370$b458de18@ODIN> Message-ID: <005901c6f87b$431df360$b458de18@ODIN> Hello all, I'm new to ESP-r and as a first run I thought I'd make a model of my house and so far, so good: the ground floor is complete as far as walls, windows & doors. I now want to add the stairway from the ground floor to the top floor but I'm not sure how to proceed. Should I just create a hole in the ceiling/floor and put in a 45? slope leading up? I know it might not really matter & in terms of heat-flow it's probably the same as a hole in the ceiling/floor, but I wanted to check in case there's some standard way of doing this..... Thanks for your help, Andrew Horsford ASPAM=antispamwpk42 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061025/6eec8b99/attachment.html From oliver.bucks at club-internet.fr Thu Oct 26 08:57:47 2006 From: oliver.bucks at club-internet.fr (Oliver Bucks) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 09:57:47 +0200 Subject: [esp-r] Re: Connecting two zones with a stairwell References: <003d01c6f871$60af9370$b458de18@ODIN> <005901c6f87b$431df360$b458de18@ODIN> Message-ID: <002c01c6f8d4$6d463270$f400a8c0@olli> Hello Andrew, Unless you are examining convection patterns, thermal stratification or other air movement in detail, I don't think you need to be worried about the exact geometry of your stairs. However, It might be a nice idea to include a cube (or 'wedge') of roughly the same mass and surface area as your stairs in the zone you'll create to represent your stairwell. This is simply a matter of creating the vertices you want inside the zone concerned and creating surfaces to represent a closed cube/wedge 'staircase' inside your zone. You can't have 'holes' in your zones' peripheries. You will have to create a 'fictive' material and construction. This fictive material must have very low density, specific heat, and absorbtion. It must have high permeability, IR emissivity.... It should be transparent too. As if it isn't there. The construction you create using the fictive material will make up the surface between the 1st floor and the ground floor - your 'hole'. Olli -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061026/2b07d2b3/attachment.html From georgios at esru.strath.ac.uk Thu Oct 26 18:01:09 2006 From: georgios at esru.strath.ac.uk (Georgios Kokogiannakis) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 18:01:09 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Re: EPBD implementation in Portogual and Phase change material In-Reply-To: <000001c6f912$42525f60$b67ca8c0@acer6f41f6f6c8> References: <000001c6f912$42525f60$b67ca8c0@acer6f41f6f6c8> Message-ID: <200610261801.10002.georgios@esru.strath.ac.uk> Nuno, The PCM options worked fine at my computer. Simulation and results analysis also run fine. You can also select any node you prefer for your constructions. Each layer has 3 nodes (e.g inside, middle and outside). Number 1 node is the outside node of the outside layer for the specific construction. A simple way to increase the number of nodes of your construction is by increasing the number of layers and reduce the thickness of each layer. For example, if you have one 100mm brick layer you will normally get 3 nodes for this layer. By creating two 50mm brick layers you will get 6 nodes for the same construction. All this must be correct and I hope they are helpful to you. Regards, Georgios > >>Some days ago I post a message regarding problems with phase change > >>materials, I have already cross my initial problems, it's seems that the > >>advanced materials file created with the model have one problem writhing > >> a value. But it works now. > >> > >>However I have another question. When modelling PCMs, its necessary to > >>define the layer properties in the multilayer constructions file, until > >>here no problems. But when I define the active material (PCM) in the > >>advanced components module it is necessary to define the node were it is > >>associated. Well my problem starts here. I have read that the proper way > >>of putting them in the layer is in the middle node but, the system, by > >>default, only define two nodes for each layer. > >> > >>How can I tell the system to define, unless 3 nodes in each layer? I read > >>too, that a better subdivision of the layer will increase accuracy. > > Thanks in advance. > > Best regards, > > Nuno Fernandes > > ################################################### > Nuno Tiago Afonso Fernandes > > Universidade de Aveiro > Departamento de Engenharia Mec?nica > > nuno.fernandes at mec.ua.pt > ################################################### > -----Original Message----- > From: Georgios Kokogiannakis [mailto:georgios at esru.strath.ac.uk] > Sent: segunda-feira, 23 de Outubro de 2006 18:20 > To: Nuno Fernandes > Subject: Re: EPBD implementation in Portogual - calculation methods > > Dear Nuno, > > thanks very much for your reply. It will be useful to me if you have any > updates in the future regarding this. > For the ASHRAE 140-2004 I will say the same thing as at my previous email. > ESP-r is already included in the main publication of the standard for the > envelope/qualification tests. Just have a look at the original publication > of > this standard. For the HVAC tests, there might be an issue there because > there are only the 2 publications that I sent you the previous time. If you > read them you will see that not all of the results are there due to size > restrictions. They were done by Canadians (Kamel Haddad is a good contact > for > this). Maybe an official publication from ESRU for these tests might be > necessary. Let me know when your regulations are finalised and what kind of > report is needed. I will then talk with the guys in ESRU that could arrange > a > report and see how we can progress it in order ESP-r to be accredited in > Portugal. > > Kind regards, > > Georgios > > On Monday 23 October 2006 13:55, you wrote: > > Dear Georgios, > > > > I do remember our previous contact. > > > > Relatively to your question what I can say is that the translation of > > European directive to Portugal is official, however it just be practical > > appliance in 2007 (I think).... > > > > Relatively to the evaluation of energy demands (heating or cooling) of > > buildings there will be two allowed methods: > > > > -A simplified method based in a one zone model. This evaluation is > > calculated with a software (STE-2005) developed by INETI www.ineti.pt. > > > > -The detailed dynamic simulation method. Yes the ASHRAE 140-2004 tests > > still the criteria for the accreditation of the tools. > > > > The selection of one of these methods is based in the type of building > > and its area. But I can say that for large services buildings and > > buildings areas above 1000 sqr meters the detailed method is going to be > > obligatory. Well, these are the conclusions that I take from the legal > > document that translates the European directive. However, there still a > > lack of information about how these documents will work. > > > > Hope asks your questions. If not, just say. > > > > I hope Esp-r will be allowed. > > > > Still doesn't exist a report for Esp-r with ASHRAE 140? > > > > Sorry for my English ;) > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Nuno Fernandes > > > > > > ################################################### > > Nuno Tiago Afonso Fernandes > > > > Universidade de Aveiro > > Departamento de Engenharia Mec?nica > > > > nuno.fernandes at mec.ua.pt > > ################################################### > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Georgios Kokogiannakis [mailto:georgios at esru.strath.ac.uk] > > Sent: domingo, 22 de Outubro de 2006 20:41 > > To: Nuno Fernandes > > Subject: EPBD implementation in Portogual - calculation methods > > > > Dear Nuno, > > > > we contacted with each other in the past by email for one of your > > questions > > > in > > the esp-r list (please see previous email below). I was wondering whether > > you > > know what is the status of the EPBD implementation in Portugual. Are they > > going to allow dynamic simulation tools? If yes, are the ASHRAE 140-2004 > > tests still the criteria for the accreditation of the tools? I am asking > > because I read in one publication (of 2005) this: > > "Portugal will apply the monthly heat balance procedure to dwellings > > without > > > > air conditioning. Its original intention to allow a free choice of > > approved > > > simulation tools for other buildings is likely to be amended to make the > > CEN > > > > simplified dynamic method a ?preferred option?. It is probable that their > > approval criterion will be ASHRAE 140." > > > > I would appreciate if you can let me know your opinion on the above > > statement > > and what are the final decisions in regards with this. > > Also, this website might be useful: http://www.p3e-portugal.com/index.asp > > but > > it is in Portuguese and I can not get anything out of it. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Georgios > > > > On Friday 07 April 2006 12:43, you wrote: > > > Mr Kokogiannakis > > > > > > Can you please send me the publication: > > > > > > > > > > > > -Strachan P.A., Kokogiannakis G. and Macdonald I.A. (2005), > > > ?Encapsulation of Validation Tests in the ESP-r Simulation Program?, > > > Building Simulation ?05, Montreal, Canada. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > Nuno Fernandes > > > > > > > > > > > > Nuno Tiago Afonso Fernandes > > > > > > > > > > > > Universidade de Aveiro > > > > > > Departamento de Engenharia Mec?nica > > > > > > Campus Universit?rio de Santiago > > > > > > 3810-193 Aveiro > > > > > > Portugal > > > > > > Tel.: +351 234 370 830 > > > > > > nuno.fernandes at mec.ua.pt > > > > > > www.ua.pt From georgios at esru.strath.ac.uk Thu Oct 26 18:23:13 2006 From: georgios at esru.strath.ac.uk (Georgios Kokogiannakis) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 18:23:13 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Re: EPBD implementation in Portogual and Phase change material In-Reply-To: <200610261801.10002.georgios@esru.strath.ac.uk> References: <000001c6f912$42525f60$b67ca8c0@acer6f41f6f6c8> <200610261801.10002.georgios@esru.strath.ac.uk> Message-ID: <200610261823.14169.georgios@esru.strath.ac.uk> meant to say 5 nodes for the second case (two 50mm brick layers) - not 6! On Thursday 26 October 2006 18:01, Georgios Kokogiannakis wrote: > Nuno, > > The PCM options worked fine at my computer. Simulation and results analysis > also run fine. > You can also select any node you prefer for your constructions. Each layer > has 3 nodes (e.g inside, middle and outside). Number 1 node is the outside > node of the outside layer for the specific construction. > A simple way to increase the number of nodes of your construction is by > increasing the number of layers and reduce the thickness of each layer. For > example, if you have one 100mm brick layer you will normally get 3 nodes > for this layer. By creating two 50mm brick layers you will get 6 nodes for > the same construction. > All this must be correct and I hope they are helpful to you. > > Regards, > > Georgios > > > >>Some days ago I post a message regarding problems with phase change > > >>materials, I have already cross my initial problems, it's seems that > > >> the advanced materials file created with the model have one problem > > >> writhing a value. But it works now. > > >> > > >>However I have another question. When modelling PCMs, its necessary to > > >>define the layer properties in the multilayer constructions file, until > > >>here no problems. But when I define the active material (PCM) in the > > >>advanced components module it is necessary to define the node were it > > >> is associated. Well my problem starts here. I have read that the > > >> proper way of putting them in the layer is in the middle node but, the > > >> system, by default, only define two nodes for each layer. > > >> > > >>How can I tell the system to define, unless 3 nodes in each layer? I > > >> read too, that a better subdivision of the layer will increase > > >> accuracy. > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Nuno Fernandes > > > > ################################################### > > Nuno Tiago Afonso Fernandes > > > > Universidade de Aveiro > > Departamento de Engenharia Mec?nica > > > > nuno.fernandes at mec.ua.pt > > ################################################### > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Georgios Kokogiannakis [mailto:georgios at esru.strath.ac.uk] > > Sent: segunda-feira, 23 de Outubro de 2006 18:20 > > To: Nuno Fernandes > > Subject: Re: EPBD implementation in Portogual - calculation methods > > > > Dear Nuno, > > > > thanks very much for your reply. It will be useful to me if you have any > > updates in the future regarding this. > > For the ASHRAE 140-2004 I will say the same thing as at my previous > > email. ESP-r is already included in the main publication of the standard > > for the envelope/qualification tests. Just have a look at the original > > publication of > > this standard. For the HVAC tests, there might be an issue there because > > there are only the 2 publications that I sent you the previous time. If > > you read them you will see that not all of the results are there due to > > size restrictions. They were done by Canadians (Kamel Haddad is a good > > contact for > > this). Maybe an official publication from ESRU for these tests might be > > necessary. Let me know when your regulations are finalised and what kind > > of report is needed. I will then talk with the guys in ESRU that could > > arrange a > > report and see how we can progress it in order ESP-r to be accredited in > > Portugal. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Georgios > > > > On Monday 23 October 2006 13:55, you wrote: > > > Dear Georgios, > > > > > > I do remember our previous contact. > > > > > > Relatively to your question what I can say is that the translation of > > > European directive to Portugal is official, however it just be > > > practical appliance in 2007 (I think).... > > > > > > Relatively to the evaluation of energy demands (heating or cooling) of > > > buildings there will be two allowed methods: > > > > > > -A simplified method based in a one zone model. This evaluation is > > > calculated with a software (STE-2005) developed by INETI www.ineti.pt. > > > > > > -The detailed dynamic simulation method. Yes the ASHRAE 140-2004 tests > > > still the criteria for the accreditation of the tools. > > > > > > The selection of one of these methods is based in the type of building > > > and its area. But I can say that for large services buildings and > > > buildings areas above 1000 sqr meters the detailed method is going to > > > be obligatory. Well, these are the conclusions that I take from the > > > legal document that translates the European directive. However, there > > > still a lack of information about how these documents will work. > > > > > > Hope asks your questions. If not, just say. > > > > > > I hope Esp-r will be allowed. > > > > > > Still doesn't exist a report for Esp-r with ASHRAE 140? > > > > > > Sorry for my English ;) > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > Nuno Fernandes > > > > > > > > > ################################################### > > > Nuno Tiago Afonso Fernandes > > > > > > Universidade de Aveiro > > > Departamento de Engenharia Mec?nica > > > > > > nuno.fernandes at mec.ua.pt > > > ################################################### > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Georgios Kokogiannakis [mailto:georgios at esru.strath.ac.uk] > > > Sent: domingo, 22 de Outubro de 2006 20:41 > > > To: Nuno Fernandes > > > Subject: EPBD implementation in Portogual - calculation methods > > > > > > Dear Nuno, > > > > > > we contacted with each other in the past by email for one of your > > > > questions > > > > > in > > > the esp-r list (please see previous email below). I was wondering > > > whether you > > > know what is the status of the EPBD implementation in Portugual. Are > > > they going to allow dynamic simulation tools? If yes, are the ASHRAE > > > 140-2004 tests still the criteria for the accreditation of the tools? I > > > am asking because I read in one publication (of 2005) this: > > > "Portugal will apply the monthly heat balance procedure to dwellings > > > without > > > > > > air conditioning. Its original intention to allow a free choice of > > > > approved > > > > > simulation tools for other buildings is likely to be amended to make > > > the CEN > > > > > > simplified dynamic method a ?preferred option?. It is probable that > > > their approval criterion will be ASHRAE 140." > > > > > > I would appreciate if you can let me know your opinion on the above > > > statement > > > and what are the final decisions in regards with this. > > > Also, this website might be useful: > > > http://www.p3e-portugal.com/index.asp but > > > it is in Portuguese and I can not get anything out of it. > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > Georgios > > > > > > On Friday 07 April 2006 12:43, you wrote: > > > > Mr Kokogiannakis > > > > > > > > Can you please send me the publication: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Strachan P.A., Kokogiannakis G. and Macdonald I.A. (2005), > > > > ?Encapsulation of Validation Tests in the ESP-r Simulation Program?, > > > > Building Simulation ?05, Montreal, Canada. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nuno Fernandes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nuno Tiago Afonso Fernandes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Universidade de Aveiro > > > > > > > > Departamento de Engenharia Mec?nica > > > > > > > > Campus Universit?rio de Santiago > > > > > > > > 3810-193 Aveiro > > > > > > > > Portugal > > > > > > > > Tel.: +351 234 370 830 > > > > > > > > nuno.fernandes at mec.ua.pt > > > > > > > > www.ua.pt > > _______________________________________________ > esp-r mailing list > esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r From horsford at eastlink.ca Thu Oct 26 21:02:40 2006 From: horsford at eastlink.ca (Andrew Horsford) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 17:02:40 -0300 Subject: [esp-r] Re: Connecting two zones with a stairwell References: <003d01c6f871$60af9370$b458de18@ODIN> <005901c6f87b$431df360$b458de18@ODIN> <002c01c6f8d4$6d463270$f400a8c0@olli> Message-ID: <00aa01c6f939$b1c18660$b458de18@ODIN> Hello Olli & all, I went into the constructions database & created an item made of a single layer of air (so that air can move through the gap like a real hole would) but it says that it's not allowed.... So does that mean that it's not possible to model heating the top floor of my house as a consequence of the heated air in the lower floor rising up the stairwell? Does heat just not move around in the model like this....? What should I do for this? Thanks, Andrew ----- Original Message ----- From: Oliver Bucks To: Andrew Horsford ; esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 4:57 AM Subject: [esp-r] Re: Connecting two zones with a stairwell Hello Andrew, Unless you are examining convection patterns, thermal stratification or other air movement in detail, I don't think you need to be worried about the exact geometry of your stairs. However, It might be a nice idea to include a cube (or 'wedge') of roughly the same mass and surface area as your stairs in the zone you'll create to represent your stairwell. This is simply a matter of creating the vertices you want inside the zone concerned and creating surfaces to represent a closed cube/wedge 'staircase' inside your zone. You can't have 'holes' in your zones' peripheries. You will have to create a 'fictive' material and construction. This fictive material must have very low density, specific heat, and absorbtion. It must have high permeability, IR emissivity.... It should be transparent too. As if it isn't there. The construction you create using the fictive material will make up the surface between the 1st floor and the ground floor - your 'hole'. Olli ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ esp-r mailing list esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r ----- Original Message ----- From: Andrew Horsford To: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 6:19 PM Subject: [esp-r] Connecting two zones with a stairwell Hello all, I'm new to ESP-r and as a first run I thought I'd make a model of my house and so far, so good: the ground floor is complete as far as walls, windows & doors. I now want to add the stairway from the ground floor to the top floor but I'm not sure how to proceed. Should I just create a hole in the ceiling/floor and put in a 45? slope leading up? I know it might not really matter & in terms of heat-flow it's probably the same as a hole in the ceiling/floor, but I wanted to check in case there's some standard way of doing this..... Thanks for your help, Andrew Horsford ASPAM=antispamwpk42 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ esp-r mailing list esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061026/c3452da4/attachment-0001.html From oliver.bucks at club-internet.fr Fri Oct 27 09:07:30 2006 From: oliver.bucks at club-internet.fr (Oliver Bucks) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 10:07:30 +0200 Subject: [esp-r] Re: Connecting two zones with a stairwell References: <003d01c6f871$60af9370$b458de18@ODIN><005901c6f87b$431df360$b458de18@ODIN><002c01c6f8d4$6d463270$f400a8c0@olli> <00aa01c6f939$b1c18660$b458de18@ODIN> Message-ID: <004101c6f99e$f37de160$f400a8c0@olli> Andrew, You may not use air, but you can create something which acts pretty much like air. Copy a transparent material (like glass) and change its paramters in order to make it as transparent with regards to heat, light and air as possible. The transparency to air is called the input called permeability (I'm pretty sure).... Then, air, heat and light will travel almost unhindered from one zone to another. Olli -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061027/a64f78ae/attachment.html From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Fri Oct 27 09:15:54 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand (clcv10)) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 09:15:54 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Re: Connecting two zones with a stairwell In-Reply-To: <004101c6f99e$f37de160$f400a8c0@olli> References: <003d01c6f871$60af9370$b458de18@ODIN><005901c6f87b$431df360$b458de18@ODIN><002c01c6f8d4$6d463270$f400a8c0@olli> <00aa01c6f939$b1c18660$b458de18@ODIN> <004101c6f99e$f37de160$f400a8c0@olli> Message-ID: A recent discussion about creating fictitious connections between zones.... In the constructions and materials and optical databases which are distributed with ESP-r there are entities which are intended for this use. Check out the following: the construction 'fict' which uses the optical property 'SC_fict' and which is made of the material 'fict' (db index 245). There are also several of the exemplar models which might also show the relationships within the model - look in exemplars -> real projects -> section of office building (net infiltration). This has zones using the 'fict' construction as well as an air flow network which allows for physically based dynamic mixing of air between spaces in a partially open plan office. -ESRU From Achim.Geissler at josef-gartner.ch Fri Oct 27 09:37:04 2006 From: Achim.Geissler at josef-gartner.ch (Achim Geissler) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 10:37:04 +0200 Subject: [esp-r] Re: Connecting two zones with a stairwell Message-ID: Andrew, in addition to the below, if you want to have actual temperature dependent air movement, you will need an air flow network, as well. Achim _____ From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Oliver Bucks Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 10:08 AM To: Andrew Horsford; esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk Subject: [esp-r] Re: Connecting two zones with a stairwell Andrew, You may not use air, but you can create something which acts pretty much like air. Copy a transparent material (like glass) and change its paramters in order to make it as transparent with regards to heat, light and air as possible. The transparency to air is called the input called permeability (I'm pretty sure).... Then, air, heat and light will travel almost unhindered from one zone to another. Olli -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061027/36384a62/attachment.html From Achim.Geissler at josef-gartner.ch Fri Oct 27 09:42:28 2006 From: Achim.Geissler at josef-gartner.ch (Achim Geissler) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 10:42:28 +0200 Subject: [esp-r] Re: Connecting two zones with a stairwell Message-ID: ... additionally, I would not be sure that permeability is for air. It is - to my knowledge - for vapor diffusion ... Without an air flow network, there will be no non-scheduled air exchange between zones. Possibly there will be vapor transport, if enabled (not sure how to do that, though). Achim _____ From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Oliver Bucks Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 10:08 AM To: Andrew Horsford; esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk Subject: [esp-r] Re: Connecting two zones with a stairwell Andrew, You may not use air, but you can create something which acts pretty much like air. Copy a transparent material (like glass) and change its paramters in order to make it as transparent with regards to heat, light and air as possible. The transparency to air is called the input called permeability (I'm pretty sure).... Then, air, heat and light will travel almost unhindered from one zone to another. Olli -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061027/e7eeef74/attachment.html From dariusz.heim at p.lodz.pl Sat Oct 28 09:55:01 2006 From: dariusz.heim at p.lodz.pl (Dariusz Heim) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 10:55:01 +0200 Subject: [esp-r] Fw: Modelling Phase Change Materials Message-ID: <00ad01c6fa6e$c0c8ced0$4dd533d4@DarekH> Hallo Nuno, About the first part of your e-mail, you must be right. For PCM I still use my old version from 2001. During the later modifications ESRU must done some small changes in the code. Thank you for your discovery where the bug is. I try to change it for the new release. About the second part of your e-mail, I am not sure if I understand you well. In multilayer construction database it is necessary to define the partition, like wall, floor etc. On of the layer in that construction should be defined like a PCM composite. However on the level of multicon dbs you define it as a ordinary material (gypsum, concrete, ceramic) with corresponding sensible heat. The latent properties of the material you defined in spm file. The discretization (the thickness of the layer or division the pcm into more layers) effects on the accuracy of temperature distribution inside the construction. >From the energy point of view it is less important. As far as I know in ESP-r the finite differences method allowed to define each layer of the construction with three nodes. One middle node and two boundary nodes. The idea was similar to the PV modelling which was developed by Nick Kelly from Strathclyde in 1998. Please, look at his PhD Thesis which must be available on the web side: http://www.esru.strath.ac.uk/ and than Books and PhD Thesis. There is a detailed description how the "material properties substitution" works. I will be very happy, if you have additional questions or comments. with the best regards, Darek ----- Original Message ----- From: Nuno Fernandes To: 'Dariusz Heim' Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 12:11 PM Subject: RE: [esp-r] Modelling Phase Change Materials Hello Mr. Heim, Once again thanks for your reply. It seems that the problem that I have related is crossed. The initial problem occur when defining the phase change material in the advance components module, a incorrect value of the parameter "Latent Heat member b" was written in the folder with the properties of the PCM. To cross this, I have manually introduced the value in the folder and everything work's properly. Well not everything and this is my newest problem. I have read some of yours publications from IBPSA Conferences and an ASHRAE Transaction where you describe your work. It seams, when modelling PCMs, its necessary to define the layer properties in the multilayer constructions file, until here no problems. But when defining the active material (PCM) in the advanced components module it is necessary to define the node were it is associated. Well my problem starts here. My reading conclusions indicate that the proper way of putting them in the layer is in the middle node but, the system, by default, only define two nodes for each layer. How can I tell the system to define, unless 3 nodes in each layer? I read too, that a better subdivision of the layer will increase accuracy. Thanks in advance. Best regards, Nuno Fernandes ################################################# Nuno Tiago Afonso Fernandes Universidade de Aveiro Departamento de Engenharia Mec?nica Campus Universit?rio de Santiago 3810-193 Aveiro Portugal Tel.: +351 234 370 830 nuno.fernandes at mec.ua.pt www.ua.pt ########################################################## ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Dariusz Heim [mailto:dariusz.heim at p.lodz.pl] Sent: sexta-feira, 13 de Outubro de 2006 17:41 To: Nuno Fernandes; esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk Subject: Re: [esp-r] Modelling Phase Change Materials Dear Nuno, I was working on PCM in ESP-r a few years ago and it works. I not sure how it is going just now. Please, let me know what is your version of ESP and than I will try to help you. with best regards, Darek ----- Original Message ----- From: Nuno Fernandes To: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 4:15 PM Subject: [esp-r] Modelling Phase Change Materials Dear all esp-r users, I'm starting to model a project, which will include in its constructions, phase change materials. My question is related with the modelling of PCMs in esp-r. Does anyone have notes or tips to give me? I tried to model it but I haven't any good resultsL. Can someone help me? Thanks in advance. Best regards, Nuno Fernandes ################################################# Nuno Tiago Afonso Fernandes Universidade de Aveiro Departamento de Engenharia Mec?nica Campus Universit?rio de Santiago 3810-193 Aveiro Portugal Tel.: +351 234 370 830 nuno.fernandes at mec.ua.pt www.ua.pt ########################################################## ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ esp-r mailing list esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061028/67aea2df/attachment-0001.html From claricebleil at yahoo.com.br Sun Oct 29 09:39:06 2006 From: claricebleil at yahoo.com.br (Clarice Bleil de Souza) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 01:39:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [esp-r] Research post for simulation Message-ID: <20061029093906.60051.qmail@web51708.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Research posts at the Welsh School of Architecture, Cardiff Simulation Research Posts in the UK The Welsh School of Architecture, Cardiff University, has announced a number of new research projects and requires new research staff with experience in thermal and/or lighting modelling. Please see our web site for further information on these posts; http://www.cardiff.ac.uk/archi/newsandevents/index.html , or visit the Job Opportunities webpage for an overview of all available posts http://www.cardiff.ac.uk/schoolsanddivisions/divisions/humrs/jobs/academicresearchsenior/index.html alternatively, you can download the full information pack for each post, from: http://www.cardiff.ac.uk/schoolsanddivisions/divisions/humrs/jobs/academicresearchsenior/19339.dld http://www.cardiff.ac.uk/schoolsanddivisions/divisions/humrs/jobs/academicresearchsenior/19340.dld http://www.cardiff.ac.uk/schoolsanddivisions/divisions/humrs/jobs/academicresearchsenior/19341.dld Closing date for applications is 3 November 2006. Contact: Spyros Stravoravdis Architectural Science Group Welsh School of Architecture Cardiff University Bute Building, King Edward VII Ave Cardiff CF10 3NB Tel. 0044 (0)2920 874755 Fax.0044 (0)2920 874623 _______________________________________________________ Novidade no Yahoo! Mail: receba alertas de novas mensagens no seu celular. Registre seu aparelho agora! http://br.mobile.yahoo.com/mailalertas/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061029/4c36fb44/attachment.html From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Tue Oct 31 17:47:40 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand (clcv10)) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 17:47:40 +0000 Subject: [esp-r] Beta testers requested for a new native windows installer for ESP-r Message-ID: <8D3B47F3-70A7-4479-946A-B38DCDECE539@esru.strath.ac.uk> This is a call for volunteers.... We are in the final stages of proving a new version of ESP-r. One of the tasks is to ensure that the native Windows version of ESP-r rolls cleanly onto a variety of PCs (old, new, fast, slow, lots of memory, short on memory etc.). I am looking for volunteers who are willing to be sent a BETA version of the windows installer to try out on a computer and report back observations about what works and what needs to be tweaked. I will use a service called dropload which sends you an email message with instructions for downloading the installer (which is about 36MB). Types of feedback requested: a) did the installer run [ yes no] b) where the messages in the installer helpful [ yes no suggestions....] c) were the steps clear [ yes no suggestions...] d) did it create the folders it should have (C:\Esru and C:\GTK) [ yes no ] e) did it correctly patch the 'path' variable [ yes no] f) was it possible to startup ESP-r from the desktop icon [ yes no ] g) was it possible to browse to the example models in the C:\Esru\Models folder an open and play with such models [ yes no sort-of ] h) was it possible to 'own' one of the exemplar models - and where did it xcopy the files to and was it possible to open that model after it was copied and/or click on a cfg file and start up the project manager focused on that model [ yes no sort- of ] i) if you are a guru at Inno Setup or ISTool and know how to make the installer work better please feel free to make suggestions. We would be happy to share the 'iss' file. j) what was the machine type [ ], OS [ ], memory [ MB], disk space [ GB] you tested the installer on. Because it is a BETA installer there is a risk that ESP-r will not work or that on a particular machine/OS combination there are problems observed. And of course volunteers will backup any working version of ESp-r on their test machines ;-) And there are lots of new goodies in the version about to be released you get a chance to see it first.... Feedback (just email back the a-j sections above) will help us make the installer more robust. If you are interested - please email jon at esru.strath.ac.uk with your name and email address and I will forward the installer to you! Regards, Jon Hand From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Wed Nov 1 13:06:19 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand (clcv10)) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 13:06:19 +0000 Subject: [esp-r] Re: Windows ESP-r and the use of Linux simulation models In-Reply-To: <000601c6fdb0$a6038dc0$b458de18@ODIN> References: <8D3B47F3-70A7-4479-946A-B38DCDECE539@esru.strath.ac.uk> <000901c6fd29$129307f0$b458de18@ODIN> <000c01c6fd3f$fa9280b0$b458de18@ODIN> <4B269D24-2854-4E6A-B5BE-147A57F3D7C0@esru.strath.ac.uk> <000601c6fdb0$a6038dc0$b458de18@ODIN> Message-ID: > > I've been working in Fedora linux but I'd like to try out the > Windows version. Is the model instantly compatible? I copied the > model folder out of Linux into Windows (using SMB file-share) but I > couldn't open the model - it completely yarked and didn't seem to > know where anything was so the loading of the model failed. When ESP-r is installed onto a particular computer it edits the names of the folders and databases in the example files to point to the folder where ESP-r is to be installed on that computer. Things were so simple when we forced everyone on every machine to use the same setup. Porting ESP-r to Windows and moving away from '/usr/esru' on other machine types has introduced some complexity. New ESP-r models will point to wherever you installed esp-r. If you take model to another computer which had esp-r installed in the same location then there is a strong chance that the model would work 'out-of-the-box'. If esp-r had been installed in a different location then it would probably complain a bit. When that model is brought across into a Windows box, where the standard databases are located in C:\Esru\esp-r\databases) it gets confused. There is no automated procedures (yet) to update an imported model to alter the files to point at the databases on the new machine. There probably is a way to do this, we just have not thought of it yet so, in the interim you are going to have to edit the configuration file. -Jon From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Wed Nov 1 14:57:02 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand (clcv10)) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 14:57:02 +0000 Subject: [esp-r] Native windows BETA installer has been updated.... Message-ID: We have had a brilliant response to the call for BETA testers of the native windows installer....six folk have taken it and there are another 4-5 waiting for me to upload the installer. And based on the feedeback thus far we have clarified the text in the installer and changed the font (some machines had unreadable fonts) and extended the functionality of the installer: - It now creates an icon on the desktop that actually looks like an icon, - It sets up an association between model configuration files and the esp-r.cmd startup script so that you can click on a model configuration file and have it load up. - ESP-r now is more likely to find exemplar models that you asked to own even if they end up in the Documents and Settings folder. Other suggestions will take a while, but we will still benefit from people having a look so let me know if you want to join in the effort (previous testers can get a fresh copy as well) just let me (jon at esru.strath.ac.uk) know your email address and name and I will upload the 38MB installer via the dropload service... Types of feedback requested: a) did the installer run [ yes no] b) where the messages in the installer helpful [ yes no suggestions....] c) were the steps clear [ yes no suggestions...] d) did it create the folders it should have (C:\Esru and C:\GTK) [ yes no ] e) did it correctly patch the 'path' variable [ yes no] f) was it possible to startup ESP-r from the desktop icon [ yes no ] g) was it possible to browse to the example models in the C:\Esru\Models folder an open and play with such models [ yes no sort-of ] h) was it possible to 'own' one of the exemplar models - and where did it xcopy the files to and was it possible to open that model after it was copied and/or click on a cfg file and start up the project manager focused on that model [ yes no sort- of ] i) if you are a guru at Inno Setup or ISTool and know how to make the installer work better please feel free to make suggestions. We would be happy to share the 'iss' file because we can't get it to make a startup menu entry for ESP-r! j) what was the machine type [ ], OS [ ], memory [ MB], disk space [ GB] you tested the installer on. THE USUAL DISCLAIMER.... Because it is a BETA installer there is a risk that ESP-r will not work on a particular machine/OS combination. Of course volunteers will backup any working version of ESp-r on their test machines ;-) Regards, Jon Hand From horsford at eastlink.ca Wed Nov 1 15:47:58 2006 From: horsford at eastlink.ca (Andrew Horsford) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 11:47:58 -0400 Subject: [esp-r] SURADJ WARNING? Message-ID: <001b01c6fdcd$1ba37ce0$b458de18@ODIN> Hello all, I don't know what I did, but ever since I created a new zone manually from vertex-point input (rather than copying an existing zone and THEN changing the vertices) I've been getting the follwing warnings: Zone 6 & Surface 1 did not resolve to a known item in the connection list. Zone 6 & Surface 2 did not resolve to a known item in the connection list. Zone 6 & Surface 3 did not resolve to a known item in the connection list. Zone 6 & Surface 4 did not resolve to a known item in the connection list. Zone 6 & Surface 5 did not resolve to a known item in the connection list. Zone 6 & Surface 6 did not resolve to a known item in the connection list. Zone 6 & Surface 7 did not resolve to a known item in the connection list. SURADJ WARNING: returned connection 0. ...and so on another 7 times. It also does this for another zone adjacent to it When I go into the 'Surface Attributes' section for one of the offending zones, I find that most of the surfaces are either blank or have duplicate names & construction materials etc as though they've all been copied & pasted multiple times into the file by hand (I haven't been editing the files).... Only one of the zones (eg. Surf-3) shows up with any info and when I went in to re-specify the attributes, all except that surface (Surf-3) hold on to the most recent change only so I get Window dbl_glz EXTERIOR Window dbl_glz EXTERIOR Surf-3 Ext Wall EXTERIOR Window dbl_glz EXTERIOR Window dbl_glz EXTERIOR Window dbl_glz EXTERIOR Window dbl_glz EXTERIOR Also, when I have one zone open, if I click somewhere in the window (ie. not selecting an option) it says Zone [x] surface [y] is an unknown connection, skipping suredgeadj and when I go in to look at the vertex list it says that the enclosure is fully bounded, yet when I exit that menu it always says Negative or zero zone volume detected. Vertex information may be in error or surfaces incomplete [continue] Since I've only done the zones & no airflow etc yet, I deleted that zone & the one next to it hoping that that would clear whatever was the problem but now when I close & re-open the model it gives that error with just about EVERY surface in EVERY zone! (I haven't checked exhaustively, but it looks like it) I *really* do not want to have to delete the whole thing & start from scratch - though I've written down the vertex points so that it'll be quicker to put them all back again.... The only thing that I can think of that I did between now & before this started happening was to create a user copy of the Materials & Constructions databases so that I could put in my own fictitious materials to simulate an open space between the downstairs & the upstairs in the stairwell, but I can't see how that would cause this. Please help! Thanks, Andrew Horsford From Gunter.Pueltz at MuellerBBM.de Thu Nov 2 12:35:48 2006 From: Gunter.Pueltz at MuellerBBM.de (Pueltz, Gunter) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 13:35:48 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] shading by a semi-transparent obstruction ....... ? Message-ID: <2417729F3416D511A27E0090273A963B010B09A6@smex01.mbbm.de> A question to the ESP shading specialists: I have to model a very special type of external shading: The complete building shows an "external envelope", which consists of parallel metal tubes (see attached figures: section and view of this "envelope"). This external grid of horizontal tubes shows a shading coefficient of appr. 45% (55% is free open area). Now my question: How to model a semi-transparent (appr. 55% transmission) shading ? Does ESP-r calculate the transmission of the incident solar radiation through a transparent external obstruction (e.g. a glazing with transmission of 55%) in a correct way ? If transparent obstruction does not work: Any other idea ? I do NOT want to model hundreds of single tubes ........ !!!! Regards, Gunter -- Gunter P?ltz M?ller-BBM GmbH Robert-Koch-Stra?e 11 82152 Planegg Telefon +49 (0)89 85602 - 336 Telefax +49 (0)89 85602 - 111 http://www.MuellerBBM.de -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: section.png Type: application/octet-stream Size: 47474 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061102/059f9be2/attachment-0002.obj -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: view-facade.png Type: application/octet-stream Size: 11420 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061102/059f9be2/attachment-0003.obj From Achim.Geissler at josef-gartner.ch Thu Nov 2 12:48:45 2006 From: Achim.Geissler at josef-gartner.ch (Achim Geissler) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 13:48:45 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Re: shading by a semi-transparent obstruction ....... ? Message-ID: Hi Gunter, it will be interesting what others think / know(!). Here is my understanding: The ESP-r "obstructions" can not be semi-transparent. So, you can either approximate the hundreds of tubes by condensing them into less with the according overall shading area (actually, making them is not quite as large a p-i-t-a as one would initially think ... see attached screen shot). Or, if you want to use something semi-transparent, you will need to build a very well ventilated additional zone (zones) around your model with the appropriate external fa?ade properties (55% transparent). Of course, directional radiation will be lost by ESP-r after going through this external envelope. This approach could, however, take any heating-up of the shading tubes into account. As far as I know, ESP-r "obstructions" do not "warm up". For what its worth ... Best regards, Achim Mit freundlichen Gr?ssen / Best regards Achim Geissler > -----Original Message----- > From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk [mailto:esp-r- > bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Pueltz, Gunter > Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 1:36 PM > To: 'esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk' > Subject: [esp-r] shading by a semi-transparent obstruction ....... ? > > A question to the ESP shading specialists: > > I have to model a very special type of external shading: > The complete building shows an "external envelope", > which consists of parallel metal tubes (see attached figures: > section and view of this "envelope"). > This external grid of horizontal tubes shows a shading coefficient > of appr. 45% (55% is free open area). Now my question: > > How to model a semi-transparent (appr. 55% transmission) shading ? > Does ESP-r calculate the transmission of the incident solar radiation > through a transparent external obstruction (e.g. a glazing with > transmission of 55%) in a correct way ? > > If transparent obstruction does not work: Any other idea ? > I do NOT want to model hundreds of single tubes ........ !!!! > > Regards, > Gunter > > -- > Gunter P?ltz > > M?ller-BBM GmbH > Robert-Koch-Stra?e 11 > 82152 Planegg > Telefon +49 (0)89 85602 - 336 > Telefax +49 (0)89 85602 - 111 > http://www.MuellerBBM.de -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ModelShading.png Type: image/png Size: 30782 bytes Desc: ModelShading.png Url : http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061102/49e9543b/attachment-0001.png From gialloneroverde at gmail.com Mon Nov 6 13:15:18 2006 From: gialloneroverde at gmail.com (giulio benincasa) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 14:15:18 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Fundamental libraries to installation ESP-r Message-ID: <67666d10611060515w47c378fft2ec3cec5ab485089@mail.gmail.com> Hello all, I try to install ESP-r on Ubuntu 6.06 but haven't find the libraries fundamental: libm and libdl ( is libdl ruby (Debian) ??) where I can find ?? Thank you very much, Best regards Giulio From fpcraveiro at gmail.com Mon Nov 6 16:44:58 2006 From: fpcraveiro at gmail.com (Francisco Pacheco Craveiro) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 16:44:58 -0000 Subject: [esp-r] lisbon climate file In-Reply-To: <67666d10611060515w47c378fft2ec3cec5ab485089@mail.gmail.com> References: <67666d10611060515w47c378fft2ec3cec5ab485089@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000001c701c2$e6d83240$b48896c0$@com> Does someone have a Lisbon climate file working that could send me? _______________________________________________ esp-r mailing list esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r From nuno.fernandes at mec.ua.pt Mon Nov 6 17:40:16 2006 From: nuno.fernandes at mec.ua.pt (Nuno Fernandes) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 17:40:16 -0000 Subject: [esp-r] Re: lisbon climate file In-Reply-To: <000001c701c2$e6d83240$b48896c0$@com> Message-ID: <000001c701ca$9f9d3490$0b7ca8c0@acer6f41f6f6c8> Hy Francisco You can try this link to U. S. Department of Energy http://www.eere.energy.gov/buildings/energyplus/cfm/weather_data3.cfm/region =6_europe_wmo_region_6/country=PRT/cname=Portugal It has data for several locations in Portugal. Best regards, (cumprimentos) Nuno Fernandes ################################################### Nuno Tiago Afonso Fernandes Universidade de Aveiro Departamento de Engenharia Mec?nica nuno.fernandes at mec.ua.pt ################################################### -----Original Message----- From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Francisco Pacheco Craveiro Sent: segunda-feira, 6 de Novembro de 2006 16:45 To: 'giulio benincasa'; esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk Subject: [esp-r] lisbon climate file Does someone have a Lisbon climate file working that could send me? _______________________________________________ esp-r mailing list esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r _______________________________________________ esp-r mailing list esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r From jake.zwart at sympatico.ca Tue Nov 7 22:20:17 2006 From: jake.zwart at sympatico.ca (Jake Zwart) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 17:20:17 -0500 Subject: [esp-r] Solar Obstructions not working as expected In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Good day, I have solar obstructions around my model representing trees. However, no matter what height I make them there is no difference in zone temperatures. Are there common areas mistakes are made that I should be looking into. Andrew Zwart -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 1600 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061107/dd82a6d3/attachment.bin From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Wed Nov 8 09:03:41 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand (clcv10)) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 09:03:41 +0000 Subject: [esp-r] Re: rules for surfaces to be shaded (correctly) in ESP-r In-Reply-To: <2417729F3416D511A27E0090273A963B02786EF8@smex01.mbbm.de> References: <2417729F3416D511A27E0090273A963B02786EF8@smex01.mbbm.de> Message-ID: <6025C4F8-526A-41FB-B238-07CFB58761F8@esru.strath.ac.uk> ESRU hints.... Several users have recently created models which look geometrically correct but which the shading and insolation analysis is not correct. There have been a few messages in the past about the relationship between zone surfaces and obstruction blocks to avoid the dreaded crossing-the-plane mesaage. The engine in the ish module is ALSO sensitive to the edge ordering of surfaces and the direction of the first two edges of surfaces. This is legacy code and no one has found the time to update it. The interface does not currently look at the polygons as they are created and revise them to conform to the foibles of ish. Generating models that work is thus an issue for users and for the people charged with model QA. The rule set seems to be: a) Ish figures out the orientation of a surface by looking at the first 3 vertices of the surface (other modules uses a different technique). b) ish works best if the initial edge of the surface is close to horizontal and the 2nd edge is at an angle to the first edge (i.e. two edges along the same line can fail). c) ish seems to get the orientation wrong if the first edge of the surface is a vector pointing down. d) for flat surfaces orientation is not particularly an issue e) just because the wire-frame image looks correct the surface might just be facing backwards - if you are in the northern hemisphere and it is noon and direct solar radiation is coming in a window that is supposed to be on the north you probably have a reversed surface For surfaces which have no edge which is close to horizontal and which you notice is causing trouble - add a short (~25-50mm) near-horizontal edge at the start of the surface. How do you figure out if shading and insolation are working correctly? a) use the wireframe view-from-the-sun FIRST to get an impression of the solar exposure of the model at different times of the year as well as looking at where sunlight would go in rooms. Actually this is a technique experts employ as they are creating models in order to decide if solar access is an issue. b) turn on the synopsis in the ish module as the shading calculations progresses c) use the view surface shading option in the ish module to review the pattern of shading on surfaces of interest d) use the solar-entering and solar absorbed reports/graphs in the results analysis -ESRU From oliver.bucks at club-internet.fr Wed Nov 8 09:56:47 2006 From: oliver.bucks at club-internet.fr (Oliver Bucks) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 10:56:47 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Re: Solar Obstructions not working as expected References: Message-ID: <003601c7031c$345aec10$f400a8c0@olli> Hello, I have had the same problems as Jake I managed to partially correct this by increasing the density ofthe grid projected onto shaded surfaces. However, with certain climate databases, I cannot get rid of a huge peak in solar radiation at the end of the day as the sun sets. Obstructions blocking off light from the last 5? of the sun's path (and extending below ground) did not solve this problem. Olli Bucks From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Wed Nov 8 15:36:33 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand (clcv10)) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 15:36:33 +0000 Subject: [esp-r] Re: Solar Obstructions not working as expected In-Reply-To: <009b01c702ba$e9ebb620$6401a8c0@DellNotebook> References: <009b01c702ba$e9ebb620$6401a8c0@DellNotebook> Message-ID: <8F51DADC-0A50-4B33-9B67-0020BA5DEB10@esru.strath.ac.uk> A recent question about tree shading.... > I have solar obstructions around my model representing trees. > However, no matter what height I make them there is no difference > in zone temperatures. Are there common areas mistakes are made > that I should be looking into. > There are some classic things to check a) failure to associate the obstructions file with one or more of the zones (it has happened that people forget) b) failure to actually do the shading computations (it has happened) c) letting shading run silently rather than interatively so that you can check that there are not very many of the crossing-the-plane-of- surface warnings. In worse cases there are so many exceptions caused by the crossing-the-pane stuff that no shading gets calculated d) failure to use the synopsis reporting when running the shading assessment and then viewing the shading patterns on various surfaces in the model to confirm shading patterns e) this is actuallly the first thing to do - use the wireframe view from the sun facility to check that the obstructions actually shade the building at various times of the year. f) have a look at solar entering the zone with and without the shading analyis - there probably should be a difference if the trees are having an impact. -ESRU From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Wed Nov 8 17:37:11 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand (clcv10)) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 17:37:11 +0000 Subject: [esp-r] By popular demand - ESP-r native windows installer for a D drive - BETA testers requested Message-ID: <1DAE4A3F-F52D-4573-B1E8-2B9F8408A0CD@esru.strath.ac.uk> Over the last few weeks we have had dozens of responses to our BETA testing of the one click native windows ESP-r installer. As a result : a) several of the exemplar models have been fixed b) the results analysis module tends to start up and open files correctly for models which are in folders with spaces. c) Also images embedded in models also display when there are spaces in the folder names. d) Export of text data from the results module produces a file (so it is not necessary to cut and paste from the text feedback buffer. Several people stated that they would really like to have an installer which puts ESP-r in the D dirve. So, we tried it and (shockingly) it seems to be working almost as good as the standard C drive. And there is so much to look at and review that we are looking for volunteers to try the D drive installer (if you don't have a D drive you can sit this one out). For those who already have the C drive version: Probably if you should uninstall the older version before doing tthe D drive version and you might need to have a look at your PATH envirnment variable to see that it includes D:\Esru rather than C:\Esru. Also any models which you played around with will probably point to databases in C:\Esru\esp-r\databases and climate files in C:\Esru\esp-r\climate and they really should point to the D drive. For those of you who do not already have ESP-r on your machine there seems to be no preparation required. The questions are basically the same as earlier: a) did the installer run [ yes no] b) where the messages in the installer helpful [ yes no suggestions....] c) were the steps clear [ yes no suggestions...] d) did it create the folders it should have (D:\Esru and C:\GTK) [ yes no ] e) did it correctly patch the 'path' variable [ yes no] for those with a previous version what happened to the path variable? f) was it possible to startup ESP-r from the desktop icon [ yes no ] was a desktop icon created [ yes no ] g) was it possible to 'own' one of the exemplar models - and where did it xcopy the files to and was it possible to open that model after it was copied and/or click on a cfg file and start up the project manager focused on that model [ yes no sort- of ] h) if you use Windows explorer to copy and past a model to another location on your machine can you click on the cfg file within the model cfg folder and have the project manager startup [ yes no sort-of ] i) if you are a guru at Inno Setup or ISTool and know how to make the installer work better please feel free to make suggestions. We would be happy to share the 'iss' file because we can't get it to make a startup menu entry for ESP-r! j) what was the machine type [ ], OS [ ], memory [ MB], disk space [ GB] you tested the installer on. THE USUAL DISCLAIMER.... Because it is a BETA installer there is a risk that ESP-r will not work on a particular machine/OS combination. Of course volunteers will backup any working version of ESp-r on their test machines ;-) Regards, Jon Hand From ibeausol at NRCan.gc.ca Fri Nov 10 18:54:30 2006 From: ibeausol at NRCan.gc.ca (Beausoleil-Morrison, Ian) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 13:54:30 -0500 Subject: [esp-r] release of ESP-r version 11.2 Message-ID: Dear ESP-r users and developers, Version 11.2 of the ESP-r system is now available. A summary of the changes and new features included in this release is given at the bottom of this e-mail. The source code may be accessed via the ESP-r Central Subversion repository. To do this, you must first install a Subversion client on your system. Free clients are available at http://subversion.tigris.org/project_packages.html. Once you have installed the Subversion client you can download the source code for version 11.2 of ESP-r anonymously using the following command: svn checkout https://esp-r.net/espr/esp-r/trunk OR svn checkout http://esp-r.net/espr/esp-r/trunk If you previously downloaded version 11.1 with the above command, then you do not have to do a full download of version 11.2. Rather, you can update the source code with the following command: svn update https://esp-r.net/espr/esp-r/trunk OR svn update http://esp-r.net/espr/esp-r/trunk (ESP-r developers who wish to make source code contributions to ESP-r should contact me directly so that we can configure an account for you on ESP-r Central. Further information on ESP-r Central for developers is available on the ESRU web site.) ESP-r source code is available exclusively through ESP-r Central. However, ESRU will continue to produce and post pre-compiled versions for specific operating environments on its web site. These binary versions will generally be made available within a few days of a source code release and will be announced to this e-mail list. Release notes will also continue to be posted on the ESRU web site. Regards, - Ian Ian Beausoleil-Morrison ESP-r Archivist Natural Resources Canada Release Notes 11.2 (November 2006) ==================== Generic Code Update ------------------- - ESP-r can now be compiled using the gcc4/gfortran compiler set that is shipped with many current Linux distributions. However, non-trivial numerical differences have been found between ESP-r compiled with gcc4/gfortran and ESP-r compiled with gcc3/g77. Consequently gcc4/gfortran builds should be considered beta for the time being. - The 'Install' script has been redesigned to streamline the installation process. A number of redundant user prompts have been removed and support for compilations 'out of the box' has been improved for Sun cc/f90 and MINGW. - The 'Readme' file has been re-written to reflect recent changes to the distribution and compilation of ESP-r, and to provide the user with more information. - The 'text-only' version of ESP-r was revived, allowing users to build ESP-r on environments on which neither X11 nor GTK is available. Simulator --------- - The treatment for half-hour centred solar data (such as found in CWEC climate files) has been updated so that sub-hour simulations use the appropriate interpolation. This affects only solar data. - A small bug affecting insolation analysis has been corrected. - A new plant component model of an adsorption storage unit has been added and variants of existing plant components for water storage tanks, pumps, pipes, and a new controller have been created to support the modelling of adsorption storage systems. Interested users are referred to the M.A.Sc. thesis of Maria Mottillo, which is available in the 'related publications' section of the ESRU web site. - A new plant component has been added for modelling solar thermal collectors. Interested users are referred to a paper by Didier Thevenard, Kamel Haddad, and Julia Purdy, which is available in the 'related publications' section of the ESRU web site. - A new boundary condition type has been added to the building thermal domain to support the CEN 13791 standard. A treatment has also been added to support the CEN 13791 approach for modelling surface convection. (The CEN 13791 approach for treating solar absorption on the other side of partitions will be added in a future release.) Numerous interface changes have been incorporated to allow users to impose the CEN 13791 standard for testing/validating projects. Project Manager --------------- - ISO 6946 U-values are now reported. - Simulation presets can now support the integration of hourly results. - The logic for flow component multi-sensor controllers has been reworked. - Numerous changes have been made to improve program navigation and work flow. - Additional contextual help has been added, e.g. reporting of energy balances, external pressure coefficients. - There is increased use of GTK widgets to improve the operation of ESP-r built with the GTK (versus the X11) libraries. - The logic supporting optical property switching has been corrected and extended. - Improvements have been made to QA reports. - Improvements have been made to the viewing of CFD domains and the feedback provided to the user. - A number of exemplar models have been improved. - A bug caused problems when running models which included both pre-defined simulation periods and a CFD domain. This has been repaired. - A bug caused program crashes when a faulty zone fuzzy logic controller was specified. This has been repaired. - A facility has been added to allow the copying of infiltration/ventilation and/or casual gains from other zones. Data can also be scaled by zone volume or floor area. - A bug related to the drawing of the site origin has been repaired. - A new exemplar has been added with an abstract representation of a heated floor and a chilled ceiling. Quality Control Utility ----------------------- - A number of bugs were repaired in the regression tester. - New functionality has been added to the regression tester to help diagnose differences between reference and test versions of ESP-r and to compare run-time differences. Additional Changes ------------------ - Many additional changes have been made that are transparent to the user. Information on these, as well as further details on all the above-mentioned changes, can be found in ESP-r Central's change log by providing the following URL to your web browser: https://esp-r.net/wsvn/espr/wsvn/esp-r/. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061110/b2ba0553/attachment.html From gialloneroverde at gmail.com Sun Nov 12 12:04:58 2006 From: gialloneroverde at gmail.com (giulio benincasa) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 13:04:58 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] ESP-r installation Message-ID: <67666d10611120404w19a4bd70ubb009b3195d8a56a@mail.gmail.com> Hello all, I'm a very beginner of UNIX environment and have installed ESP-r 11.1 on UBUNTU 6.06 but to run esp-r I have to every time repeat from the terminal the operation gedit ~/.bash_profile source ~/.bash_profile there is some that it may helps me ??? another problem is that cannot browse plantc.db1 from the module databases while from the plant network module it works correctly, like matters have to study to resolve this problems???? Best regards Giulio From Gunter.Pueltz at MuellerBBM.de Mon Nov 13 10:21:41 2006 From: Gunter.Pueltz at MuellerBBM.de (Pueltz, Gunter) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 11:21:41 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Re: release of ESP-r version 11.2 Message-ID: <2417729F3416D511A27E0090273A963B02786F0F@smex01.mbbm.de> Dear Ian, you wrote that ESP-r version 11.2 provides several adjustments to EN 13791 (see below). Concerning these enhancements following important question: Is there an official certification for ESP-r, v11.2, available (e.g. from ESRU), which GUARANTEES that ESP-r completely satisfies the requirements of EN 13791 ? Our clients are NOT interested in calculating several test-cases according to EN 13791, our clients (as well as our quality assurance system) require that we have to use only a certified zonal simulation tool according to EN 13791 - and we have to make this evident for our client by an official certificate of the software producer ! Currently we are running into more and more problems, because such a required certificate is not yet available for ESP-r ....... ?!?! It would also help, if we could tell our clients, that this certificate will be available in some month/ mid of 2007/end of 2007 .......???? Regards, Gunter -------------------------------------------- Dr.-Ing. Gunter P?ltz M?ller-BBM GmbH Robert-Koch-Str. 11 82152 Planegg bei M?nchen Telefon +49 (89) 85602-336 Telefax +49 (89) 85602-111 http://www.mbbm.de email:plz at mbbm.de -----Original Message----- From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk]On Behalf Of Beausoleil-Morrison, Ian Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 7:54 PM To: ESP-r mailing list Subject: [esp-r] release of ESP-r version 11.2 Dear ESP-r users and developers, Version 11.2 of the ESP-r system is now available. A summary of the changes and new features included in this release is given at the bottom of this e-mail. The source code may be accessed via the ESP-r Central Subversion repository. To do this, you must first install a Subversion client on your system. Free clients are available at http://subversion.tigris.org/project_packages.html. Once you have installed the Subversion client you can download the source code for version 11.2 of ESP-r anonymously using the following command: svn checkout https://esp-r.net/espr/esp-r/trunk OR svn checkout http://esp-r.net/espr/esp-r/trunk If you previously downloaded version 11.1 with the above command, then you do not have to do a full download of version 11.2. Rather, you can update the source code with the following command: svn update https://esp-r.net/espr/esp-r/trunk OR svn update http://esp-r.net/espr/esp-r/trunk (ESP-r developers who wish to make source code contributions to ESP-r should contact me directly so that we can configure an account for you on ESP-r Central. Further information on ESP-r Central for developers is available on the ESRU web site.) ESP-r source code is available exclusively through ESP-r Central. However, ESRU will continue to produce and post pre-compiled versions for specific operating environments on its web site. These binary versions will generally be made available within a few days of a source code release and will be announced to this e-mail list. Release notes will also continue to be posted on the ESRU web site. Regards, - Ian Ian Beausoleil-Morrison ESP-r Archivist Natural Resources Canada Release Notes 11.2 (November 2006) ==================== Generic Code Update ------------------- - ESP-r can now be compiled using the gcc4/gfortran compiler set that is shipped with many current Linux distributions. However, non-trivial numerical differences have been found between ESP-r compiled with gcc4/gfortran and ESP-r compiled with gcc3/g77. Consequently gcc4/gfortran builds should be considered beta for the time being. - The 'Install' script has been redesigned to streamline the installation process. A number of redundant user prompts have been removed and support for compilations 'out of the box' has been improved for Sun cc/f90 and MINGW. - The 'Readme' file has been re-written to reflect recent changes to the distribution and compilation of ESP-r, and to provide the user with more information. - The 'text-only' version of ESP-r was revived, allowing users to build ESP-r on environments on which neither X11 nor GTK is available. Simulator --------- - The treatment for half-hour centred solar data (such as found in CWEC climate files) has been updated so that sub-hour simulations use the appropriate interpolation. This affects only solar data. - A small bug affecting insolation analysis has been corrected. - A new plant component model of an adsorption storage unit has been added and variants of existing plant components for water storage tanks, pumps, pipes, and a new controller have been created to support the modelling of adsorption storage systems. Interested users are referred to the M.A.Sc. thesis of Maria Mottillo, which is available in the 'related publications' section of the ESRU web site. - A new plant component has been added for modelling solar thermal collectors. Interested users are referred to a paper by Didier Thevenard, Kamel Haddad, and Julia Purdy, which is available in the 'related publications' section of the ESRU web site. - A new boundary condition type has been added to the building thermal domain to support the CEN 13791 standard. A treatment has also been added to support the CEN 13791 approach for modelling surface convection. (The CEN 13791 approach for treating solar absorption on the other side of partitions will be added in a future release.) Numerous interface changes have been incorporated to allow users to impose the CEN 13791 standard for testing/validating projects. Project Manager --------------- - ISO 6946 U-values are now reported. - Simulation presets can now support the integration of hourly results. - The logic for flow component multi-sensor controllers has been reworked. - Numerous changes have been made to improve program navigation and work flow. - Additional contextual help has been added, e.g. reporting of energy balances, external pressure coefficients. - There is increased use of GTK widgets to improve the operation of ESP-r built with the GTK (versus the X11) libraries. - The logic supporting optical property switching has been corrected and extended. - Improvements have been made to QA reports. - Improvements have been made to the viewing of CFD domains and the feedback provided to the user. - A number of exemplar models have been improved. - A bug caused problems when running models which included both pre-defined simulation periods and a CFD domain. This has been repaired. - A bug caused program crashes when a faulty zone fuzzy logic controller was specified. This has been repaired. - A facility has been added to allow the copying of infiltration/ventilation and/or casual gains from other zones. Data can also be scaled by zone volume or floor area. - A bug related to the drawing of the site origin has been repaired. - A new exemplar has been added with an abstract representation of a heated floor and a chilled ceiling. Quality Control Utility ----------------------- - A number of bugs were repaired in the regression tester. - New functionality has been added to the regression tester to help diagnose differences between reference and test versions of ESP-r and to compare run-time differences. Additional Changes ------------------ - Many additional changes have been made that are transparent to the user. Information on these, as well as further details on all the above-mentioned changes, can be found in ESP-r Central's change log by providing the following URL to your web browser: https://esp-r.net/wsvn/espr/wsvn/esp-r/. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061113/6c6f1335/attachment-0001.html From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Mon Nov 13 11:03:51 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand (clcv10)) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 11:03:51 +0000 Subject: [esp-r] Re: ESP-r running on UBUNTU In-Reply-To: <67666d10611120404w19a4bd70ubb009b3195d8a56a@mail.gmail.com> References: <67666d10611120404w19a4bd70ubb009b3195d8a56a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: A recent question about starting up ESP-r on Ubuntu... > I'm a very beginner of UNIX environment and have installed ESP-r 11.1 > on UBUNTU 6.06 > > but to run esp-r I have to every time repeat from the terminal the > operation > > gedit ~/.bash_profile > > source ~/.bash_profile > ESRU do not have this particular Linux distribution so we can only comment in general about operating system questions. The file .bash_profile should be scanned when you start up a command window IF the command shell you are using is a bash shell (Linux distributions tend to come with a variety of different command shells). Use whatever application Ubuntu offers for managing user accounts and look in the user accounts settings to see which shell is started up by default and if it is not a bash shell try changing this over to see if it works better. -ESRU From Achim.Geissler at josef-gartner.ch Mon Nov 13 12:18:35 2006 From: Achim.Geissler at josef-gartner.ch (Geissler Achim) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 13:18:35 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Re: release of ESP-r version 11.2 Message-ID: <5410907208A9F149ADB6E44744892B3C225F@sgartgum1.gart.intra> Dear Ian, Jon, Paul, I can only second what Gunter asks / requires. "Certified" software is important as soon as there is a standard published which offers a means to check software. However, as Prof. Clarke and ESP-r are cited in the standard, I would assume that calculations to "prove" the sufficiency of ESP-r have been done in the past? A small "certificate" to this effect and the summary "Passed" would most probably suffice for most cases ... Best regards, Achim _____ From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Pueltz, Gunter Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 11:22 AM To: 'esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk' Cc: 'Beausoleil-Morrison, Ian' Subject: [esp-r] Re: release of ESP-r version 11.2 Dear Ian, you wrote that ESP-r version 11.2 provides several adjustments to EN 13791 (see below). Concerning these enhancements following important question: Is there an official certification for ESP-r, v11.2, available (e.g. from ESRU), which GUARANTEES that ESP-r completely satisfies the requirements of EN 13791 ? Our clients are NOT interested in calculating several test-cases according to EN 13791, our clients (as well as our quality assurance system) require that we have to use only a certified zonal simulation tool according to EN 13791 - and we have to make this evident for our client by an official certificate of the software producer ! Currently we are running into more and more problems, because such a required certificate is not yet available for ESP-r ....... ?!?! It would also help, if we could tell our clients, that this certificate will be available in some month/ mid of 2007/end of 2007 .......???? Regards, Gunter -------------------------------------------- Dr.-Ing. Gunter P?ltz M?ller-BBM GmbH Robert-Koch-Str. 11 82152 Planegg bei M?nchen Telefon +49 (89) 85602-336 Telefax +49 (89) 85602-111 http://www.mbbm.de email:plz at mbbm.de -----Original Message----- From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk]On Behalf Of Beausoleil-Morrison, Ian Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 7:54 PM To: ESP-r mailing list Subject: [esp-r] release of ESP-r version 11.2 Dear ESP-r users and developers, Version 11.2 of the ESP-r system is now available. A summary of the changes and new features included in this release is given at the bottom of this e-mail. The source code may be accessed via the ESP-r Central Subversion repository. To do this, you must first install a Subversion client on your system. Free clients are available at http://subversion.tigris.org/project_packages.html. Once you have installed the Subversion client you can download the source code for version 11.2 of ESP-r anonymously using the following command: svn checkout https://esp-r.net/espr/esp-r/trunk OR svn checkout http://esp-r.net/espr/esp-r/trunk If you previously downloaded version 11.1 with the above command, then you do not have to do a full download of version 11.2. Rather, you can update the source code with the following command: svn update https://esp-r.net/espr/esp-r/trunk OR svn update http://esp-r.net/espr/esp-r/trunk (ESP-r developers who wish to make source code contributions to ESP-r should contact me directly so that we can configure an account for you on ESP-r Central. Further information on ESP-r Central for developers is available on the ESRU web site.) ESP-r source code is available exclusively through ESP-r Central. However, ESRU will continue to produce and post pre-compiled versions for specific operating environments on its web site. These binary versions will generally be made available within a few days of a source code release and will be announced to this e-mail list. Release notes will also continue to be posted on the ESRU web site. Regards, - Ian Ian Beausoleil-Morrison ESP-r Archivist Natural Resources Canada Release Notes 11.2 (November 2006) ==================== Generic Code Update ------------------- - ESP-r can now be compiled using the gcc4/gfortran compiler set that is shipped with many current Linux distributions. However, non-trivial numerical differences have been found between ESP-r compiled with gcc4/gfortran and ESP-r compiled with gcc3/g77. Consequently gcc4/gfortran builds should be considered beta for the time being. - The 'Install' script has been redesigned to streamline the installation process. A number of redundant user prompts have been removed and support for compilations 'out of the box' has been improved for Sun cc/f90 and MINGW. - The 'Readme' file has been re-written to reflect recent changes to the distribution and compilation of ESP-r, and to provide the user with more information. - The 'text-only' version of ESP-r was revived, allowing users to build ESP-r on environments on which neither X11 nor GTK is available. Simulator --------- - The treatment for half-hour centred solar data (such as found in CWEC climate files) has been updated so that sub-hour simulations use the appropriate interpolation. This affects only solar data. - A small bug affecting insolation analysis has been corrected. - A new plant component model of an adsorption storage unit has been added and variants of existing plant components for water storage tanks, pumps, pipes, and a new controller have been created to support the modelling of adsorption storage systems. Interested users are referred to the M.A.Sc. thesis of Maria Mottillo, which is available in the 'related publications' section of the ESRU web site. - A new plant component has been added for modelling solar thermal collectors. Interested users are referred to a paper by Didier Thevenard, Kamel Haddad, and Julia Purdy, which is available in the 'related publications' section of the ESRU web site. - A new boundary condition type has been added to the building thermal domain to support the CEN 13791 standard. A treatment has also been added to support the CEN 13791 approach for modelling surface convection. (The CEN 13791 approach for treating solar absorption on the other side of partitions will be added in a future release.) Numerous interface changes have been incorporated to allow users to impose the CEN 13791 standard for testing/validating projects. Project Manager --------------- - ISO 6946 U-values are now reported. - Simulation presets can now support the integration of hourly results. - The logic for flow component multi-sensor controllers has been reworked. - Numerous changes have been made to improve program navigation and work flow. - Additional contextual help has been added, e.g. reporting of energy balances, external pressure coefficients. - There is increased use of GTK widgets to improve the operation of ESP-r built with the GTK (versus the X11) libraries. - The logic supporting optical property switching has been corrected and extended. - Improvements have been made to QA reports. - Improvements have been made to the viewing of CFD domains and the feedback provided to the user. - A number of exemplar models have been improved. - A bug caused problems when running models which included both pre-defined simulation periods and a CFD domain. This has been repaired. - A bug caused program crashes when a faulty zone fuzzy logic controller was specified. This has been repaired. - A facility has been added to allow the copying of infiltration/ventilation and/or casual gains from other zones. Data can also be scaled by zone volume or floor area. - A bug related to the drawing of the site origin has been repaired. - A new exemplar has been added with an abstract representation of a heated floor and a chilled ceiling. Quality Control Utility ----------------------- - A number of bugs were repaired in the regression tester. - New functionality has been added to the regression tester to help diagnose differences between reference and test versions of ESP-r and to compare run-time differences. Additional Changes ------------------ - Many additional changes have been made that are transparent to the user. Information on these, as well as further details on all the above-mentioned changes, can be found in ESP-r Central's change log by providing the following URL to your web browser: https://esp-r.net/wsvn/espr/wsvn/esp-r/. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061113/bfd05126/attachment-0001.html From filipi at pucrs.br Mon Nov 13 12:55:06 2006 From: filipi at pucrs.br (Filipi Vianna) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 10:55:06 -0200 Subject: [esp-r] Re: ESP-r running on UBUNTU In-Reply-To: References: <67666d10611120404w19a4bd70ubb009b3195d8a56a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1163422507.17117.12.camel@europa> Giulio, I run ESRU on a Debian workstation. And I already did a couple of experiences on Ubuntu. Usually the .bash_profile is scanned when you start up a new bash login shell from a terminal application. What is happening is that your terminal application isn't starting your login shell. The default terminal application on Debian and Ubuntu is the "Gnome Terminal", and the "Gnome Terminal" doesn't starts a login shell by default. To change that, you should go to the "Edit" menu, then click on "Profiles...". When the profiles window has open, select the "Default" and then click on the "Edit" button. Then a configuration window will open. So you have to select the "Title and Command" tab, where there is a check box for "Run command as a login shell", check this check box, click on the "Close" button for this window and then click on the "Close" button on the profiles window. So, with this configuration, every time you starts a new terminal, the gnome terminal will run a new login shell and will read the .bash_profile file. I hope it helps, Best regards, On Mon, 2006-11-13 at 11:03 +0000, Jon Hand (clcv10) wrote: > A recent question about starting up ESP-r on Ubuntu... > > > I'm a very beginner of UNIX environment and have installed ESP-r 11.1 > > on UBUNTU 6.06 > > > > but to run esp-r I have to every time repeat from the terminal the > > operation > > > > gedit ~/.bash_profile > > > > source ~/.bash_profile > > > > ESRU do not have this particular Linux distribution so we can > only comment in general about operating system questions. > > The file .bash_profile should be scanned when you start up > a command window IF the command shell you are using is > a bash shell (Linux distributions tend to come with a variety > of different command shells). > > Use whatever application Ubuntu offers for managing user > accounts and look in the user accounts settings to see which > shell is started up by default and if it is not a bash shell try > changing this over to see if it works better. > > -ESRU > > _______________________________________________ > esp-r mailing list > esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r -- Filipi Vianna Computational Mechanics Laboratory (DEMM) College of Engineering - PUCRS +55 51 33203584 From gialloneroverde at gmail.com Mon Nov 13 15:01:00 2006 From: gialloneroverde at gmail.com (giulio benincasa) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 16:01:00 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Re: ESP-r running on UBUNTU In-Reply-To: <1163422507.17117.12.camel@europa> References: <67666d10611120404w19a4bd70ubb009b3195d8a56a@mail.gmail.com> <1163422507.17117.12.camel@europa> Message-ID: <67666d10611130700o210193afm4240a3a48e5d21f6@mail.gmail.com> Many thanks to you; Best regards Giulio 2006/11/13, Filipi Vianna : > Giulio, > > I run ESRU on a Debian workstation. And I already did a couple > of experiences on Ubuntu. > > Usually the .bash_profile is scanned when you start up a new > bash login shell from a terminal application. What is happening > is that your terminal application isn't starting your login shell. > > The default terminal application on Debian and Ubuntu is the > "Gnome Terminal", and the "Gnome Terminal" doesn't starts a > login shell by default. To change that, you should go to the > "Edit" menu, then click on "Profiles...". When the profiles window > has open, select the "Default" and then click on the "Edit" button. > Then a configuration window will open. So you have to select the > "Title and Command" tab, where there is a check box for > "Run command as a login shell", check this check box, click on > the "Close" button for this window and then click on the "Close" > button on the profiles window. > > So, with this configuration, every time you starts a new terminal, > the gnome terminal will run a new login shell and will read the > .bash_profile file. > > I hope it helps, > > Best regards, > > On Mon, 2006-11-13 at 11:03 +0000, Jon Hand (clcv10) wrote: > > A recent question about starting up ESP-r on Ubuntu... > > > > > I'm a very beginner of UNIX environment and have installed ESP-r 11.1 > > > on UBUNTU 6.06 > > > > > > but to run esp-r I have to every time repeat from the terminal the > > > operation > > > > > > gedit ~/.bash_profile > > > > > > source ~/.bash_profile > > > > > > > ESRU do not have this particular Linux distribution so we can > > only comment in general about operating system questions. > > > > The file .bash_profile should be scanned when you start up > > a command window IF the command shell you are using is > > a bash shell (Linux distributions tend to come with a variety > > of different command shells). > > > > Use whatever application Ubuntu offers for managing user > > accounts and look in the user accounts settings to see which > > shell is started up by default and if it is not a bash shell try > > changing this over to see if it works better. > > > > -ESRU > > > > _______________________________________________ > > esp-r mailing list > > esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > > http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r > > -- > Filipi Vianna > Computational Mechanics Laboratory (DEMM) > College of Engineering - PUCRS > +55 51 33203584 > > From susana at mtarch.com Mon Nov 13 14:37:44 2006 From: susana at mtarch.com (Susana Saiz) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 09:37:44 -0500 Subject: [esp-r] evaporative cooling Message-ID: <000001c70731$48f312b0$7f0ba8c0@Susana> Good morning, I would like to know about the convective and radiation coefficients in the evaporative cooling control choice. Could someone give me an idea of values? Thank you very much, Susana Moriyama & Teshima Architects 32 Davenport Road, Toronto, Ontario M5R 1H3 Canada t: 416-925-4484 f: 416-925-4637 www.mtarch.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061113/9b60281d/attachment.html From cj at cr-jay.ca Tue Nov 14 10:35:08 2006 From: cj at cr-jay.ca (Chris Jones) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 05:35:08 -0500 Subject: [esp-r] Re: By popular demand - ESP-r native windows installer for a D drive - BETA testers requested In-Reply-To: <1DAE4A3F-F52D-4573-B1E8-2B9F8408A0CD@esru.strath.ac.uk> References: <1DAE4A3F-F52D-4573-B1E8-2B9F8408A0CD@esru.strath.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20061114103509.CHRA29039.simmts12-srv.bellnexxia.net@crj-3-4.cr-jay.ca> I just ran the D installer. First I uninstalled esp-r and erased the remaining c:\esru files. The install went fine. I rebooted which set the path to d:\esru\esp-r\bin;c:\gtk\bin I went to the command line and entered c:\> esp-r This brought up the project manager along with the ERROR: "Could not find C:/Esru/esp-r/default" Click Close Then I tried to Open and exemplar. No luck. Exit Project Manager Then go to Start, Programs - no ESP menu folder created. Then go to Desktop, double click esp-r (newly created icon on the desktop). Again, "Could not find C:/Esru/esp-r/default" Check Project Manager, Database Maintenance. The paths all start with C:\. Note I can change the path to D:\ for all the database except climate. I can't find a way to point to the climate list on D:\. At this point I stopped messing about. At 12:37 PM 11/8/2006, Jon Hand (clcv10) wrote: >Over the last few weeks we have had dozens of responses to our BETA >testing of the one click native windows ESP-r installer. As a result : > a) several of the exemplar models have been fixed > b) the results analysis module tends to start up and open files >correctly for models > which are in folders with spaces. > c) Also images embedded in models also display when there are spaces > in the folder names. > d) Export of text data from the results module produces a file (so >it is not > necessary to cut and paste from the text feedback buffer. > >Several people stated that they would really like to have an installer >which puts ESP-r in the D dirve. So, we tried it and (shockingly) it >seems to be >working almost as good as the standard C drive. > >And there is so much to look at and review that we are looking for >volunteers >to try the D drive installer (if you don't have a D drive you can sit >this one out). > >For those who already have the C drive version: > >Probably if you should uninstall the older version before doing tthe >D drive >version and you might need to have a look at your PATH envirnment >variable to see that it includes D:\Esru rather than C:\Esru. Also >any models which you played around with will probably point to >databases in C:\Esru\esp-r\databases and climate files >in C:\Esru\esp-r\climate and they really should point to the D drive. > >For those of you who do not already have ESP-r on your machine >there seems to be no preparation required. > >The questions are basically the same as earlier: > >a) did the installer run [ yes no] > >b) where the messages in the installer helpful [ yes no suggestions....] > >c) were the steps clear [ yes no suggestions...] > >d) did it create the folders it should have (D:\Esru and C:\GTK) >[ yes no ] > >e) did it correctly patch the 'path' variable [ yes no] > > for those with a previous version what happened to the path >variable? > >f) was it possible to startup ESP-r from the desktop icon [ yes no ] > > was a desktop icon created [ yes no ] > >g) was it possible to 'own' one of the exemplar models - and > where did it xcopy the files to and was it possible to open > that model after it was copied and/or click on a cfg file and > start up the project manager focused on that model [ yes no sort- >of ] > >h) if you use Windows explorer to copy and past a model to another > location on your machine can you click on the cfg file within the > model cfg folder and have the project manager startup [ yes no >sort-of ] > >i) if you are a guru at Inno Setup or ISTool and know how to make the > installer work better please feel free to make suggestions. We would > be happy to share the 'iss' file because we can't get it to make >a startup > menu entry for ESP-r! > >j) what was the machine type [ ], OS [ ], memory [ MB], disk >space [ GB] > you tested the installer on. > >THE USUAL DISCLAIMER.... > >Because it is a BETA installer there is a risk that ESP-r >will not work on a particular machine/OS combination. >Of course volunteers will backup any working version of ESp-r >on their test machines ;-) > >Regards, Jon Hand > > >_______________________________________________ >esp-r mailing list >esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk >http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r Chris Jones 14 Oneida Avenue Toronto, ON M5J 2E3. Tel. 416-203-7465 Fax. 416-946-1005 From a.jacobs at londonmet.ac.uk Tue Nov 14 12:26:34 2006 From: a.jacobs at londonmet.ac.uk (Axel Jacobs) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 12:26:34 -0000 (GMT) Subject: [esp-r] Re: release of ESP-r version 11.2 Message-ID: <10145.213.58.97.216.1163507194.squirrel@webmail1.londonmet.ac.uk> Dear Ian, > Version 11.2 of the ESP-r system is now available. A summary of the > changes and new features included in this release is given at the bottom > of this e-mail. It seems the development progresses in leaps and bounced. Big thumbs up for this release. The new build system (I installed on Debian) is _much_ improved. Allow me to share a few thoughts that have occured to me, and which I find a little confusing: - The build script installs all .svn sub-directories, which I don't believe are required for esp-r to function. - I've been preparing the next release of LEARNIX (http://luminance.londonmet.ac.uk/learnix/index.shtml), and only checked out 11.1 less than two days prior the anouncement of 11.2. In those less than 48 hour, an entirely different built system was introduced which could potentially has far-reaching implications on the functionality and accuracy of the software. So if any testing did happen (which I assume), then it could have only lasted less then 48 hours. For something as fundamental as a new build script, this strikes me as a little short. - In comparision to 11.1 two days ago, the prompt regarding the new XML2 output has disappeard. Is this default-enabled now? - When you mention numerial differences with the new GNU F77 compiler, than this can only mean that building under gcc-g77 version 4 has not been tested and is strongly discouraged? This is a very fundamental issue and should be highlighted during the build procedure. - With all this said, I wonder if you would actually consider 11.2 a 'stable' release, or rather a 'We know it's broken, but please send bug reports'-release. If the latter is the case, may I ask which the 'stable' release is, and how to obtain it. Is there an option in svn that allows us to go back in time? - This brings me to my last point: SVN. Normal users who have no interest in the development process and just wish to download and use any software should NEVER EVER have to get anywhere near a concurrent versioning system. May I propose that if you do consider 11.2 fit for a production environment, then please do provide tar balls like you used to do. Those are the points that I wished to raise. Let me conclude be expressing my excitement about the new gtk GUI code, and that I am very much looking forward to some slick, modern interface that you already seem to have on the drawing board. Thank you everybody for the excellent work you've been putting in. Kind regards Axel From ibeausol at NRCan.gc.ca Tue Nov 14 20:09:44 2006 From: ibeausol at NRCan.gc.ca (Beausoleil-Morrison, Ian) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 15:09:44 -0500 Subject: [esp-r] Re: release of ESP-r version 11.2 In-Reply-To: <10114.213.58.97.169.1163362072.squirrel@webmail1.londonmet.ac.uk> Message-ID: Dear Axel, Good to hear from you. Please find my responses to your questions below. > - The build script installs all .svn sub-directories, which I don't > believe are required for esp-r to function. Most sections of the Install script have been reworked. The result is a more streamlined and improved installation, as you note. However, the portions of the Install script that deal with the creation of the "training", "validation", and "manual" installation directories have not yet been upgraded. As you note the ".svn" directories are unnecessarily installed in these three directories. To avoid this situation, you can download the source code using an "svn export" rather than an "svn checkout" command: svn export https://esp-r.net/espr/esp-r/trunk OR svn export http://esp-r.net/espr/esp-r/trunk With this, the Install script will not copy any ".svn" directories into the installation directory. > - I've been preparing the next release of LEARNIX > (http://luminance.londonmet.ac.uk/learnix/index.shtml), and > only checked > out 11.1 less than two days prior the anouncement of 11.2. In > those less > than 48 hour, an entirely different built system was introduced which > could potentially has far-reaching implications on the > functionality and > accuracy of the software. So if any testing did happen (which > I assume), > then it could have only lasted less then 48 hours. For something as > fundamental as a new build script, this strikes me as a little short. Version 11.1 was released in July and version 11.2 was released last week. We expect future releases will be spaced at about this interval, i.e. every three or four months. Extensive regression testing and cross-platform testing is conducted prior to each release. This quality assurance procedure is designed to assure that no differences in ESP-r functionality or simulation results are introduced between releases. If modifications to ESP-r have caused differences in simulation results, the release testing assures that the differences are attributable to the changes introduced by the developer, and not the result of an unintended bug. Refer to section 10 of src/Readme for a summary of the regression and cross-platform testing that was conducted prior to the 11.2 release. > - In comparision to 11.1 two days ago, the prompt regarding > the new XML2 > output has disappeard. Is this default-enabled now? Users have the option of compiling the source code with XML output support, but this feature is disabled by default. The Install script now contains error checking to prevent compilation of this feature on unsupported platforms/compiler types or when the required XML header files cannot be found on the system. The Install script automatically disables the XML output option (with a warning) if these tests fail. > - When you mention numerial differences with the new GNU F77 compiler, > than this can only mean that building under gcc-g77 version 4 > has not been > tested and is strongly discouraged? This is a very > fundamental issue and > should be highlighted during the build procedure. The cross-platform testing testing mentioned above has been performed with the gcc4/gfortran compiler set and we observed as-yet-unexplained and non-trivial numerical differences compared with gcc3/g77. Until the cause of these differences are diagnosed we recommend the use of gcc3/g77. Our general impression is that the gfortran side of gcc4/gfortran is not yet quite a fully functional fortran compiler. > - With all this said, I wonder if you would actually consider 11.2 a > 'stable' release, It is absolutely considered stable. We don't and won't issue releases until they are proven stable through the regression and cross-platform testing mentioned above. > - This brings me to my last point: SVN. Normal users who have > no interest > in the development process and just wish to download and use > any software > should NEVER EVER have to get anywhere near a concurrent versioning > system. May I propose that if you do consider 11.2 fit for a > production > environment, then please do provide tar balls like you used to do. When the decision was taken to create the ESP-r Central repository for ESP-r's source code development, we took the decision to distribute source code exclusively through this repository. This ensures that all developers are working with exactly the same code base. Distribution of source code by a secondary route such as tarballs risks introducing unintended forks in the code base. If we hear a resounding chorus from users who find this problematic then that decision could be revisited. Note that ESRU continues to distribute pre-compiled versions of ESP-r for a number of operating environments for those users that do not with to compile themselves. Best regards, - Ian From schlitzberger at ibh-hauser.de Thu Nov 16 07:21:15 2006 From: schlitzberger at ibh-hauser.de (Stephan Schlitzberger) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 08:21:15 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] multi year simulations Message-ID: <000001c7094f$cdbdc1a0$452b338d@fhgzubpc69> hello out there! has anybody any experience with the multi-year simulation facility? It seems that it doesn?t work yet. (I?m using ESP-r System 11.1) Thanks for any response! Stephan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061116/cf5fc3a5/attachment-0001.html From cmhui at hku.hk Thu Nov 16 07:43:43 2006 From: cmhui at hku.hk (Sam C M Hui) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 15:43:43 +0800 Subject: [esp-r] Re: multi year simulations In-Reply-To: <000001c7094f$cdbdc1a0$452b338d@fhgzubpc69> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20061116154152.03c99230@hkucc.hku.hk> Hi Stephen, I have done some multi-year building simulation some years ago. You may like to read my research paper below. Hui, S. C. M. and Cheung, K. P., 1997. Multi-year (MY) building simulation: is it useful and practical?, In Proc. of the IBPSA Building Simulation '97 Conference, 8-10 September, 1997, Prague, Czech Republic, Volume II, pp. 285-292. http://web.hku.hk/~cmhui/bs97-1.pdf Regards, Sam C M Hui Department of Mechanical Engineering The University of Hong Kong At 08:21 16/11/2006 +0100, Stephan Schlitzberger wrote: >hello out there! > >has anybody any experience with the multi-year simulation facility? It seems that it doesn?t work yet. > >(I?m using ESP-r System 11.1) > >Thanks for any response! > > > >Stephan > > > > >_______________________________________________ >esp-r mailing list >esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk >http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061116/4b475552/attachment.html From AFerguso at NRCan.gc.ca Thu Nov 16 13:39:35 2006 From: AFerguso at NRCan.gc.ca (Ferguson, Alex) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 08:39:35 -0500 Subject: [esp-r] Re: multi year simulations In-Reply-To: <000001c7094f$cdbdc1a0$452b338d@fhgzubpc69> Message-ID: Hi Stephan, We (Natural Resources Canada) authored the multi-year simulations facility, and have been using it in our work for almost a year. It's proven robust, though res does not yet support reporting of results from multi-year simulations and the optional XML output must be used instead. If you're interested in multi-year simulations but cannot get them to function correctly, I'd be happy to help. - Alex ________________________________ From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Stephan Schlitzberger Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 02:21 To: esp-r Subject: [esp-r] multi year simulations hello out there! has anybody any experience with the multi-year simulation facility? It seems that it doesn?t work yet. (I?m using ESP-r System 11.1) Thanks for any response! Stephan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061116/40cf2abf/attachment-0001.html From a.jacobs at londonmet.ac.uk Thu Nov 16 22:05:31 2006 From: a.jacobs at londonmet.ac.uk (Axel Jacobs) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 22:05:31 -0000 (GMT) Subject: [esp-r] Calls to RADIANCE rvu In-Reply-To: References: <10114.213.58.97.169.1163362072.squirrel@webmail1.londonmet.ac.uk> Message-ID: <10179.213.58.97.155.1163714731.squirrel@webmail2.londonmet.ac.uk> Hi Ian, the RADIANCE rview command was renamed to rvu a couple of years ago. Although 'rview' is still provided as a link for backward-compatability, there is usually a problem with vim (which also has an rview) command, so it's best to not rely on it. I ran a grep on the trunk tree, and made a view changes, replacing all occurances of 'rview' with 'rvu'. Manually, that is, so all 'overviews' are still left. Please find my patch attached, hope you can implement it. $ diff -uNr trunk.orig/ trunk/ > rvu.patch Cheers Axel -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: rvu.patch.gz Type: application/x-gzip Size: 1475 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061116/e863b074/attachment.bin From horsford at eastlink.ca Thu Nov 16 23:08:05 2006 From: horsford at eastlink.ca (Andrew Horsford) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 19:08:05 -0400 Subject: [esp-r] WANTED: Easier way to remove windows & doors Message-ID: <1163718486.2380.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hello all, I don't know if I'm just missing something or if it's just not possible, but I accidentally put a window in the wrong surface and when I removed it there was a gaping hole left behind that was a bit of a pain to remove. Is there some way to remove the hole at the same time as the window or door? If not, is there some wish-list that this can be added to? Thanks, Andrew From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Fri Nov 17 09:55:26 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand (clcv10)) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 09:55:26 +0000 Subject: [esp-r] Re: WANTED: Easier way to remove windows & doors In-Reply-To: <1163718486.2380.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1163718486.2380.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <423DDB34-AF5B-44C0-810E-DEB589B47458@esru.strath.ac.uk> > > Is there some way to remove the hole at the same time as the window or > door? If not, is there some wish-list that this can be added to? > > This recent request has been our folder of things to do. It is one of those irritants that requires some extra keystrokes on the part of the user (i.e. to edit the edge list of the opaque part and then delete the orphaned vertices). Because surface polygons can be rather complex (e.g. wrap around other doors and windows) any removal action needs to be tested quite a bit) and be as generic as possible. Removing doors will take a few more steps because there are other surfaces involved with the soon-to-be-orphaned vertices. To patch the window removal would not take magic, just a bit of time ;-) Thanks for mentioning it. Actually we welcome observations of ESP-r irritants, the clearer they are the quicker it is to locate the issue in the code. And it anyone else in the development community wants to grab an irritant and reform it that is also welcome. -ESRU From a.jacobs at londonmet.ac.uk Sat Nov 18 15:15:38 2006 From: a.jacobs at londonmet.ac.uk (Axel Jacobs) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 15:15:38 -0000 (GMT) Subject: [esp-r] Some thoughts on usability Message-ID: <10097.213.58.97.145.1163862938.squirrel@webmail1.londonmet.ac.uk> Dear all, Although I don't actually use esp-r, I've had to play around with it recently. I'm very excited about the recent development that have been made with the interface, in particular the move to the Gtk toolkit. My experiences are mostly based on the RADIANCE export/viewing module, so this is what I shall confine myself too, although I've no doubt that other modules exhibit a very similar behaviour. Before I go any further, allow me to mention that I did try to find an esp-r roadmap, or even Interface design guideline, but did not succeed. If such documents exists, please forgive my ignorance, and kindly point me to them. The reason why I'm sitting down to write this in the first place is that I'm just as aware as anybody else on this list how the usability and interface of esp-r needs to be improved. With more than ten years of almost exclusively using GNU/LINUX, I've come to see an awful many changes and improvements in user interfaces. Although I'm not a programmer, I appreciate how much time will be spent to port the old X11 interface to GTK, and there is no point in doing something two or three times, when you could get it right from the beginning. So here are my two Pence... Open a model http://luminance.londonmet.ac.uk/pickup/model_open.png If I click 'Help', then close the help windows, all buttons will then open the same help window, rather than do what they're meant to do. Since this is cleary a bug, allow me to just raise it and carry on. The arrangement of the three radio buttons looks somewhat strange. Why can't they be aligned in one column? What does the 'default' tick box do? 'Cancel' should cancel the operation. The operation is to open a model, so cancel should bring me back to the main menu, not anywhere else. Most dialogs will actually ignore the 'cancel' option, and do something anyway, with parameters that we don't know. Remember, we cancelled the operation. Every dialog box should have a clearly highlighted default action, i.e. the one that happens if I just hit Enter. In Gtk, this is usually done by drawing a thicker border around the button. We're in the exemplars menu now, and like to pick a daylight model http://luminance.londonmet.ac.uk/pickup/model_with_photocells.png Again. What does 'continue' do? 'Cancel' doesn't cancel. 'Open another model' is redundant, since this is what should happen if I hit 'Cancel'. Remember that 'Cancel' should cancel the operation. The operation in this case is to open a model, NOT to pick WHICH model. This information (and hence this dialog window) is only necessary to carry out the job. Therefore, 'cancel' should bring me back to the menu that has 'open a model' as one of the entries. Fine. The model is loaded. Let's go look at it in RADIANCE. To even get into the visual simulation menu, I have to answer FOUR pop-ups. http://luminance.londonmet.ac.uk/pickup/visualisation_options_all.png This brings me 'Scene purpose', which is 'External'. At last, we're ready to rock-n-roll. But not before answering another SEVEN pop-up dialogs: http://luminance.londonmet.ac.uk/pickup/external_images_all.png To understand what is going wrong here, we need to get some advice from people who know how a good, intuitive, user-friendly interface should be designed. Wikipedia lists quite hand-full of different User Interface Guidelines (HIGs): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Interface_Guidelines Since I am a GNOME user, and since the new esp-r uses the GTK toolkit, which is what GNOME is based on, I'll choose this one for now. I also happen to know that those guidelines are not just the result of some abstract theoretical exercise, but were written after many, many hours of real people spending real time in front of real software doing real tasks. Before we get too heavy and actually read the document (http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/2.0/), let's look here http://gnomejournal.org/article/44/three-simple-tips-for-interface-design-you-should-know for Three Simple Tips for Interface Design You Should Know. We learn that the three most important points in interface design are: (1) Get your Window Types Straight (2) Order Buttons and Label them Appropriately (3) Layout with Spacing and Alignment Looking into point (1), we find that there are five types of secondary windows: * Utility Windows * Dialogs * Alerts * Progress Windows * Assistants "A dialog provides an exchange of information, or dialog, between the user and the application. Use a dialog to obtain additional information from the user that is needed to carry out a particular command or task." (http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/2.0/windows-dialog.html) To me, this seems the right one to choose for the visualisation jobbie. That's the four-pop-up one. We need to know: - type of visualisation (wireframe/rendered) This is a radio button or (better) a drop-down list: http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/2.0/controls-option-menus.html - monitor type (bw/greyscale/colour) As above, but: Is this still necessary? - config file Text entry box (or file picker) - Use RADIANCE default settings or not (radio buttons), or just assume defaults, then let user fiddle with the options later on. All those options could/should be displayed in ONE dialog window. I understand that the esp-r GUI is very much in a state of flux at the moment, and have deliberately only looked at the dialog windows, simply because they are already new. The main interface is being re-written, so no comment on it yet. Anyhow, what I would like suggest is to not leave the GUI to its own evolution, but rather draft up some HIGs, so that the esp-r interface (the single most important aspect from an end-user's point of view that needs improving) will end up a lot better than the old one, if not perfect. Here are some other points that I would just like to throw in: - Internationalzation (i18n). The GTK toolkit provides for translating the interface into any number of languages. This would not mean extra support for ESRU. All that needs to be provided for is the possibility to do this in the first place, all translations that are submitted would then just be hosted by ESRU, but supported by people in Italy, France, etc. I understand that you have no desire to trouble-shoot screenshots in Greek, but if it is possible to change the language on-the-fly, there would be no problem. - Use an external, configurable editor for output that is longer than a few lines. The little window below the wireframe preview is not really appropriate for long output. Most users will be used to their Favourite Editor, and most modern editors will allow you to open a file read-only. - If possible, separate the simulation engine from the GUI. Re-writing for GTK3 will be a lot easier ;-) Well, this is all for now. I sincerely hope you don't see this as a rant, but rather as some feedback from an end-user (who isn't actually an end-user). Cheers Axel From paul at esru.strath.ac.uk Sat Nov 18 19:43:38 2006 From: paul at esru.strath.ac.uk (P Strachan) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 19:43:38 -0000 Subject: [esp-r] Standard 13791 validation tests Message-ID: There have been some recent questions on Standard 13791. CEN Standard EN ISO 13791 contains a number of tests for simulation programs. Some national bodies require these to be passed as part of their accreditation procedure. There are 4 sets of tests in the Standard: 1. Heat conduction through opaque elements 2. Internal long-wave radiation exchanges 3. Evaluation of short-wave radiation transfer (calculation of shaded area of window due to external obstructions) 4. Whole model validation ESP-r passes all these tests. There has been some delay in passing the last of these. The reason is that the boundary conditions specified in the Standard for solar radiation (e.g. solar radiation on the other side of the ceiling at each timestep equals the radiation on the floor in the test room) and for convection (similar rules) has required some code additions. Secondly, some of the test specifications are not physically realistic - internal surfaces with absorptivity less than 1, but with no solar radiation being lost through the window of the room (i.e. solar radiation enters but does not leave). However, the boundary condition code changes have now been made and passed into the development branch ready for the next release of ESP-r, which will probably occur early next year. All results are within the prescribed tolerance bands. A report of the test results will be made, and the tests included in the standard validation tests accessible through Project Manager. Regards Paul From a.jacobs at londonmet.ac.uk Sun Nov 19 20:34:31 2006 From: a.jacobs at londonmet.ac.uk (Axel Jacobs) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 20:34:31 -0000 (GMT) Subject: [esp-r] Requirements, dot file Message-ID: <10011.213.58.97.97.1163968471.squirrel@webmail1.londonmet.ac.uk> Dear all, I'm very happy to see that the README finally got a face-lift that reflects some of the new developments within esp-r. There are, however, a few questions still unanswered which, if you don't mind, I would like to raise. I've been grepping through the src tree, and took the liberty of pasting some of the output into this message. Some of the longer lines are more than likely line-wrapped in you e-mail client. Hope this is not too confusing. ESP-r requirements ================== RADIANCE stuff -------------- - RADIANCE (http://radsite.lbl.gov/radiance) We all know this is optional but suggested. However, there are a few references to - gendaylit (http://radsite.lbl.gov/radiance/pub/generators/index.html), not part of the official RADIANCE distribution gendaylit is referenced in: ./esrue2r/radcmds.F:C gendaylit -ang 60 0 -L QDIRILL QDIFILL ./esrue2r/radcmds.F: & 'gendaylit -ang 60 0 -L 805 100 -g ',rgrfl ./esrue2r/radcmds.F: write(outs,'(a,2f7.1,a,2f7.1,a,f5.2)')'gendaylit -ang ',RSALT, ./esrue2r/e2rfile.F: elseif(OUTSTR(1:11).eq. '# gendaylit')then ./training/cg_ctl/coupling/cfg/timeillum:gendaylit -ang $1 $2 -L $3 $4 -g .10 > $NAME.sky ./training/cg_ctl/coupling/cfg/1Cou.sky:# gendaylit -ang 0.3 51.9 -L 0.0 5496.3 -g .10 Other weird things ------------------ xvgr This is a plotting program for X Windows based on Motif. I couldn't find a home page, but here is a screen shot: http://www.cnslab.carleton.ca/gromacs/man20/online/xvg.html The package seems to be no longer maintained. Is it required for esp-r to work? xvgr is referenced in: ./esrumfs/mfs.F:C If tabular info then create the headder to the xvgr parameter file. ./esrucom/startup.F: grfexe='xvgr' ./esrures/iaq.F:C Default value for xvgr file = 0 (off). ./esrures/res.F:C IFIL + 12 : output data parameters file (for xvgr/ xmgr) ./esrures/utils.F:C If tabular info then create the headder to the xvgr parameter file. ./esrudbm/startupg.F: grfexe='xvgr' ./manual/Manual/s3-:module and use the software tool "xvgr" for graphical xfig A multi-platform vector drawing program. It is still maintained and available in all major GNU/LINUX distros: http://www.xfig.org/ xfig still works fine, although it has been around since before Adam got into trouble over the apple. The user interface does show this. xfig is referenced in: ./esrucnv/ecnv.F: elseif(oformat(1:4).eq.'xfig')then ./esrucnv/ecnv.F: write(outs,'(a,a)')'The xfig output file will be: ', ./esrucnv/ecnv.F:C If input format is ww and output is xfig go and do this. ./esrucnv/ecnv.F: if(iformat(1:2).eq.'ww'.and.oformat(1:4).eq.'xfig')then ./esrucnv/ecnv.F: call wwxfig(filname1,IER) ./esrucnv/wwxfig.F:C**** convert from ww commands to xfig description. ./esrucnv/wwxfig.F: subroutine wwxfig(filname1,IER) ./esrucnv/wwxfig.F:C Write xfig header. ./esrucnv/wwxfig.F:C Account for the scaling from the win3d igw igwh to the xfig units. ./esrucnv/wwxfig.F:C one pixel is 16 xfig units. ./esrucnv/wwxfig.F:C To convert into xfig units multiply by 16. ./esrucnv/Makefile: mid_lev.o scsys.o sort.o startup.o wwxfig.o zipcnv.o ./esruprj/prjqa.F: call tstamp('>','PRJ: start xfig') ./esruprj/cadio.F: ITEMS1(5) ='e to xfig (vector ploting) ' ./esruprj/cadio.F: h(16)='model to a vector file for use in the xfig application.' ./esruprj/cadio.F:C Toggle output redirection to xfig. ./esruprj/cadio.F: h(2)='model to a vetor file for use in the xfig application. ' ./esruprj/cadio.F: h(6)='Use this facility if you have xfig on your machine. ' ./esruprj/cadio.F: & '(last chance to ajust it before export to xfig)',oke,dok,6) ./esruprj/cadio.F:C Check if conversion to xfig wanted. ./esruprj/cadio.F: call askok(' ','Convert output to xfig format?',ok,dok,1) ./esruprj/cadio.F: & xfile(1:lnblnk(xfile)),' -of xfig -out ', ./esruprj/cadio.F: call usrmsg('Starting xfig conversion via',doit,'-') ./esrucom/startup.F: figexe='xfig' ./esrucom/startup.F: & ' -of {esp|dxf|viewer|zip|xfig|vrml} -out ') ./esrucom/startup.F: & ' -of [esp|dxf|viewer|tsbi3|xfig|vrml] = dest format') ./esruvew/chat.F: M(21)='> xfig file' ./esrudbm/startupg.F: figexe='xfig' ./esrudbm/startupg.F: call edisp(iuout,' -of {esp|dxf|viewer|zip|xfig} -out ') ./esrudbm/startupg.F: call edisp(iuout,' -of [esp|dxf|viewer|tsbi3|xfig] = dest format') ./manual/OS/Cygwin/setting_up_cygwin_2004.txt: lesstif, transfig and xfig. ./manual/OS/Apple/setting_up_osx.txt: transfig (useful) for handling xfig files (can be generated by results module) ./manual/OS/Apple/setting_up_osx.txt: xfig (useful) vector drawing/graphing tool (can be generated by results module) ./manual/Manual/Figs/fig1.1.epsi:%%Title: /tmp/xfig-export005034 ./manual/Manual/Figs/fig4.1.1.eps:.9 .9 scale % to make patterns same scale as in xfig xv An image viewer for X11. Shows signs of ageing, and is no longer part of most GNU/LINUX distros: http://www.trilon.com/xv/ xf is referenced in many places, here are just two: ./esrudbm/startupg.F: grfexe='xvgr' ./esrudbm/startupg.F: fmtexe(1)='xv' xfs No idea what this is... xfs is referenced in: ./env/esprc:*report_gen Reporting tool xfs ./env/twmrc:"xfs" !"xfs &" ./env/esprc_mingw:*report_gen Reporting tool xfs ./esrucom/startup.F: foldexe='xfs ' ./esrudbm/startupg.F: foldexe='xfs ' Binary file ./cetc/h3kreports/LIBCPMT.LIB matches ./Install: echo "*report_gen,Reporting tool,xfs" >> ${ESPdir}/esprc ./Install: echo "*report_gen,Reporting tool,xfs" >> ${ESPdir}/esprc ./Install: echo "*report_gen,Reporting tool,xfs" >> ${ESPdir}/esprc ./Install: echo "*report_gen,Reporting tool,xfs" >> ${ESPdir}/esprc ./Install: echo "*report_gen,Reporting tool,xfs" >> ${ESPdir}/esprc All this brings me directly to another point: The dot file ============ It rears its head here: ./esrucom/startup.F:C SCESPRC: scans the ESP-r dot file (environment) ./esrucom/startup.F:C scesprc scans the ESP-r dot file which should be located in the ./esrudbm/startupg.F:C SCESPRC: scans the ESP-r dot file (environment) ./esrudbm/startupg.F:C scesprc scans the ESP-r dot file which should be located in the Can I just copy this file: /usr/esru/esp-r/esprc *ESPRC *gprn,rectangular dump,import *tprn,Text dump,/tmp/tx_dump *gxwd,screen dump,import -window root *cad,CAD package,xzip,ZIP *image_display,TIF,xv *image_display,XBMP,xv *image_display,GIF,xv *image_display,XWD,xv *tutorial_app,Tutorial,netscape http://www.esru.strath.ac.uk & *journal,OFF *editor,editor,nedit *report_gen,Reporting tool,xfs *exemplars,Exemplars,/usr/esru/esp-r/training/exemplars *validation_stds,Validation standards,/usr/esru/esp-r/validation/standards/stds_list *db_defaults,Defaults,/usr/esru/esp-r/default *end to $HOME/.esprc and make alterations? I imagine that xv could easily be replaced by ImageMagick's 'display'... Likewise, 'editor' can probably be just about anything, right? And netscape to firefox, say. But what about xfs and gxwd? Apologies for bombarding you with all this. I'd be happy to edit the README on svn, but need to know what to write. Cheers Axel From holzinger at immosolar.com Mon Nov 20 11:24:31 2006 From: holzinger at immosolar.com (Holzinger) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 12:24:31 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] job offers Message-ID: Dear ESP-R user, Due to a permanent growth, the Immosolar group is offering two new exciting jobs in an international team of specialists which are downright destinated to development engineers and TRNSYS or ESP-R users. REQUIRED BACKGROUND: Advanced degree in engineering or physics. Competence: Thermal power engineering, thermodynamics, thermal power plants, fluid mechanics, heat transfer and building physics TRNSYS mandatory, c++ required. Hard-working, self-starting individual excited about renewables and energy efficiency. EXPERIENCE: Candidate should have more than one year of practical experience in planning and simulation of thermal systems and buildings. DUTIES: Design and simulation of solar and geothermal systems Building simulation Development of innovative system components Follow-up development of our "EnergyRouterSoftware" Monitor solar system performance Communication and project coordination with architects, engineers and builders COMPENSATION: - Competitive salary, scaled with applicants background/skills. - Place of employment is Mallorca - one of the most livable islands in the world. - Excellent health, vacation benefits. For further information please email your resume and references to holzinger at immosolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061120/a6437ffc/attachment.html From jeremy at esru.strath.ac.uk Tue Nov 21 13:00:31 2006 From: jeremy at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jeremy Cockroft) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 13:00:31 -0000 Subject: [esp-r] Recall: Job opportunity for ESP-r developer at Strathclyde University Message-ID: <221C1AC3541E7D4FB09EB58B16FFEF4A657EDA@BE-SCAM2.ds.strath.ac.uk> Jeremy Cockroft would like to recall the message, "Job opportunity for ESP-r developer at Strathclyde University". From jeremy at esru.strath.ac.uk Tue Nov 21 13:01:51 2006 From: jeremy at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jeremy Cockroft) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 13:01:51 -0000 Subject: [esp-r] Job opportunity for ESP-r developer at Strathclyde University Message-ID: <221C1AC3541E7D4FB09EB58B16FFEF4A657EDB@BE-SCAM2.ds.strath.ac.uk> Dear ESP-r developers, ESRU have won a research contract which requires the development of domestic heating system and controls modelling within ESP-r, and simulations of various typical house/system combinations. A customised version of ESP-r will be developed that non-experts can use as a tool for advanced controls development. This project is linked to development of future building regulations that would allow the benefits of advanced controls to be recognised in compliance assessment tools. The work must be completed by the end of March 2007, so would be suited to someone seeking a short term assignment, starting as soon as possible, working closely with the esp-r development team at Strathclyde University. We would also consider applicants who wish to stay with us for an initial period of up to one year, in which case further development and consultancy work could be undertaken. If you are interested in this position, please let me know. A job ad is attached. Regards, Jeremy Cockroft ESRU Consultancy University of Strathclyde 75 Montrose Street Glasgow G1 1XJ phone +44(0)141 548 5765 fax +44(0)141 552 5105 mobile +44(0)7766 650919 email jeremy at esru.strath.ac.uk website www.esru.strath.ac.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061121/82cb5a07/attachment-0001.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Advert_BRE_nologo.doc Type: application/msword Size: 34304 bytes Desc: Advert_BRE_nologo.doc Url : http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061121/82cb5a07/attachment-0001.doc From jeremy at esru.strath.ac.uk Tue Nov 21 15:06:25 2006 From: jeremy at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jeremy Cockroft) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 15:06:25 -0000 Subject: [esp-r] Job opportunity for ESP-r developer at Strathclyde University Message-ID: <221C1AC3541E7D4FB09EB58B16FFEF4A657EE2@BE-SCAM2.ds.strath.ac.uk> You will have seen a "Recall" message related to the subject of this posting. This was a result of inadvertent button pressing on my part. The opportunity is still open. Sorry for any confusion. Jeremy Dear ESP-r developers, ESRU have won a research contract which requires the development of domestic heating system and controls modelling within ESP-r, and simulations of various typical house/system combinations. A customised version of ESP-r will be developed that non-experts can use as a tool for advanced controls development. This project is linked to development of future building regulations that would allow the benefits of advanced controls to be recognised in compliance assessment tools. The work must be completed by the end of March 2007, so would be suited to someone seeking a short term assignment, starting as soon as possible, working closely with the esp-r development team at Strathclyde University. We would also consider applicants who wish to stay with us for an initial period of up to one year, in which case further development and consultancy work could be undertaken. If you are interested in this position, please let me know. A job ad is attached. Regards, Jeremy Cockroft ESRU Consultancy University of Strathclyde 75 Montrose Street Glasgow G1 1XJ phone +44(0)141 548 5765 fax +44(0)141 552 5105 mobile +44(0)7766 650919 email jeremy at esru.strath.ac.uk website www.esru.strath.ac.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061121/911cc8f1/attachment-0001.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Advert_BRE_nologo.doc Type: application/msword Size: 34304 bytes Desc: Advert_BRE_nologo.doc Url : http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061121/911cc8f1/attachment-0001.doc From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Thu Nov 23 10:42:06 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand (clcv10)) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 10:42:06 +0000 Subject: [esp-r] Re: Result message - question - Rabenseifer In-Reply-To: <20061123100246.M14659@svf.stuba.sk> References: <20061123100246.M14659@svf.stuba.sk> Message-ID: <86F8F9DE-EF13-423C-B15D-4B52E60DD064@esru.strath.ac.uk> A recent question about MZELWE warnings during a simulation.... e.g. MZELWE a dubious sky temperature has been calculated e.g. MZELWE a longwave flux of 518 W has been calculated for Surf-9:House_Z Such warnings happens as a result of a combination of factors a) the composition of the roof (typically when there is metal with insulation below it, b) an angled roof, c) specific climate patterns (low humidity or a climate file with slightly unreal temperature and humidity conditions). The result of this combination is an over-estimation of heat losses from the surface and a warning is given. If this happens 20 or 50 times then it is an issue. In your case it only happened for a few timesteps so it is not an issue. The warning about dubious sky temperature might just be a glitch in the climate file at one or two timesteps. The temperature of the sky is derived from the temperature and humidity (there are several different options, but the default usually works ok). If this message only happens a few times then it probably is not an issue. If it happens a lot then you might want to choose a different climate or check the details of the current climate file. -ESRU From nuno.fernandes at mec.ua.pt Thu Nov 23 11:08:16 2006 From: nuno.fernandes at mec.ua.pt (Nuno Fernandes) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 11:08:16 -0000 Subject: [esp-r] graphical results Message-ID: <000901c70eef$adb79250$037da8c0@acer6f41f6f6c8> Dear esp-r user?s I?m dealing with a problem of graphical results output, this is, I?ve conducted a simulation with 60 time step in a hour (min by min) an printed the output results from the simulator (figure 1). When I run the results analysis an print the same parameters (same zone, output period etc..) the graphic comes with some huge differences in terms of temperature (figure 2). Can someone explain me why the temperatures are so different for the same thing? Why this happen? Thanks in advance. Best regards, Nuno Fernandes FIGURE 1- simulator results FIGURE 2- Result Analysis results ################################################# Nuno Tiago Afonso Fernandes Universidade de Aveiro Departamento de Engenharia Mec?nica Campus Universit?rio de Santiago 3810-193 Aveiro Portugal Tel.: +351 234 370 830 nuno.fernandes at mec.ua.pt www.ua.pt ########################################################## -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061123/35e4339c/attachment-0001.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 20777 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061123/35e4339c/attachment-0002.jpe -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 27704 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061123/35e4339c/attachment-0003.jpe From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Thu Nov 23 12:33:16 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand (clcv10)) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 12:33:16 +0000 Subject: [esp-r] Re: graphical results In-Reply-To: <000901c70eef$adb79250$037da8c0@acer6f41f6f6c8> References: <000901c70eef$adb79250$037da8c0@acer6f41f6f6c8> Message-ID: A question about results output.... A user plotted data at one minute timesteps during simulation and then compared these to what the results analysis said. One issue is that the header of the graphs captured from the results analysis module says simulation at 60m and output at 60m. Res thinks that the simulation was carried out one timestep per hour and the results were saved once per hour. There is a toggle in the simulator that (if you are running multiple time steps per hour) whether you want to average the results to one timestep per hour. If you ask it to do this the information that is saved is the average for the hour rather than the data at each minute. -ESRU From paul at esru.strath.ac.uk Thu Nov 23 12:57:33 2006 From: paul at esru.strath.ac.uk (paul strachan) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 12:57:33 +0000 Subject: [esp-r] ESP-r version 11.2 Message-ID: <45659ABD.5050506@esru.strath.ac.uk> Dear ESP-r users, Binary executables for Version 11.2 of ESP-r are now available via the downloads section on the ESRU website. These are for Linux (GTK and X11), cygwin (GTK and X11) and native Windows. A version for OSX will follow soon. The release notes on the ESRU website summarise the changes from previous releases. Regards Paul From thoele at ifc-collegen.de Mon Nov 27 10:21:34 2006 From: thoele at ifc-collegen.de (=?ISO-8859-15?Q?Gunnar_Th=F6le?=) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 11:21:34 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] 11.2: Precompiled Cygwin simulator is broken Message-ID: <456ABC2E.6030406@ifc-collegen.de> Hello, i am, or better and currently correct, was a happy ESP-R user. I am working on a project involving more than 30 buildings on an industrial site. Well, running ESP-R 11.1 Cygwin precompiled was fine. The 11.2 update broke it. Running "bps" does nothing. And i mean nothing. Not even an error message. Having bps run from the project manager does nothing as well. Running "bps -mode graphic" without an X server running does nothing, not even an error message complaining about missing X11. bps -mode text does nothing. GTK and X11 versions both don't work. A Cygwin environment update didn't help. This is for the ESP-R cygwin precompiled binaries downloaded this morning from the relevant server. I wonder what's up here? (I don't really want to compile myself on a Cygwin box. I am happy compiling on my Linux machine at home, but i try to not make too many changes to my Windows machine at work...) Cheers, Gunnar From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Mon Nov 27 11:42:19 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand (clcv10)) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 11:42:19 +0000 Subject: [esp-r] Re: 11.2: Precompiled Cygwin simulator checks In-Reply-To: <456ABC2E.6030406@ifc-collegen.de> References: <456ABC2E.6030406@ifc-collegen.de> Message-ID: <2B210422-CAF7-457A-AE69-E27CDB452E3C@esru.strath.ac.uk> A user had an issue with the version 11.2 precompiled cygwin version and here is a general discussion about how to check such an installation. This 11.2 precompiled installer has been tested on several dozen computers (XP and W2K) without issue. If the distribution does not run then there are several things to try: a) within the cygwin environment issue a 'which prj' command you should get the folder /usr/esru/esp-r/bin and or /home/esru/esp-r/bin b) the size of the executable is 7332352 and an ls -l should indicate the following permissons -rwxr-xr-x c) if you issue the comand file /usr/esru/esp-r/bin/prj.exe you should get PE executable for MS Windows (console) Intel 80386 32-bit If some or all of these tests fail then there might have been an issue with the *.run installer that you downloaded. Note the *.run file on the university web/ftp server is a binary file which should be downloaded as a binary rather than a text file. -ESRU From thoele at ifc-collegen.de Mon Nov 27 15:53:22 2006 From: thoele at ifc-collegen.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Gunnar_Th=F6le?=) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 16:53:22 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Re: 11.2: Precompiled Cygwin simulator checks In-Reply-To: <2B210422-CAF7-457A-AE69-E27CDB452E3C@esru.strath.ac.uk> References: <456ABC2E.6030406@ifc-collegen.de> <2B210422-CAF7-457A-AE69-E27CDB452E3C@esru.strath.ac.uk> Message-ID: <456B09F2.2030409@ifc-collegen.de> Jon Hand (clcv10) schrieb: > > A user had an issue with the version 11.2 precompiled cygwin version > and here is a general discussion about how to check such an installation. That user being me, i can now solve part of the mystery. > a) within the cygwin environment issue a 'which prj' command > you should get the folder /usr/esru/esp-r/bin and or > /home/esru/esp-r/bin This check was fine. > b) the size of the executable is 7332352 and an ls -l should > indicate the following permissons -rwxr-xr-x This is the size of the X11 executable of prj. The GTK version is 7311360 bytes large. My executable passed this test as well. > c) if you issue the comand file /usr/esru/esp-r/bin/prj.exe > you should get PE executable for MS Windows (console) Intel 80386 32-bit OK. None of those tests failed for me, but bps still didn't run. Redownloading the installer with an FTP client instead of a browser, explicitly setting the FTP client to "Binary", didn't change anything. Of course not, because the .run installer verifies itself when run ("verifying archive integrity") and that went without a hitch. I needed to compile ESP-r myself on Cygwin to get a working variant of bps. It is indeed not that difficult to do, so Windows users, fear not. Checkout the sourcecode from ESP-r central. Then do what "README" tells you to do. It took a fair amount of computer time, but now i have a working copy of bps v11.2 on Cygwin. I still don't know what's wrong with the installer. Have a nice evening, Gunnar From ing.wong at ulster.ac.uk Mon Nov 27 17:13:12 2006 From: ing.wong at ulster.ac.uk (Ing Liang Wong) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 17:13:12 -0000 Subject: [esp-r] Site longitude Message-ID: <001701c71247$527c6310$19873dc1@wongcst> Dear all, The site longitude for some far east cities, such as, Kuala Lumpur is 101?42'E from the Greenwich. When I enter the value (101), the following message appeared: The value of site longitude (101) is greater than 15! Is this ok? The definition of the site longitude difference in ESP-r is degrees from some local reference meridian, but why the maximum value allowed is only 15? Is that another local meridian used for far east cities? I pressume is not Greenwich. Regards, Wong -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061127/85b7a059/attachment.html From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Mon Nov 27 18:11:29 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand (clcv10)) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 18:11:29 +0000 Subject: [esp-r] Re: Site longitude In-Reply-To: <001701c71247$527c6310$19873dc1@wongcst> References: <001701c71247$527c6310$19873dc1@wongcst> Message-ID: <23668A49-3233-446A-BF85-16BD5B1DC560@esru.strath.ac.uk> A recent question about longitude difference.... Kuala Lumpur is 101 degrees 42 E. The local time meridian for this location is not Greenwich. Time at kuala Lumpur is found at either 90 degrees E or 105 degrees E and thus the difference from the 90 degree time meridian is ~11 degrees and/or from 105 degrees is ~4 degrees. -ESRU From F.Stift at exeter.ac.uk Tue Nov 28 09:47:26 2006 From: F.Stift at exeter.ac.uk (Florian STIFT) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 09:47:26 -0000 Subject: [esp-r] problems with mouse Message-ID: <001201c712d2$362cb440$b2e1ad90@anthonyToshiba> Dear all, I am new with ESP-r. I did some simulations with the previous windows_native version, but I installed the new version 11.2 last week on a LINUX environment. Now I realised that my mouse just works for the buttons next to the dialogue messages, but not for image controls, main menu a.s.o Does someone of you have similar experience with the new version and can help me solving my problem? Would be great! Cheers, Florian Florian STIFT Research Assistant Centre for Energy and the Environment University of Exeter E-mail: f.stift at exeter.ac.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061128/d8ee3c40/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 103 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061128/d8ee3c40/attachment.gif From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Tue Nov 28 10:28:12 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand (clcv10)) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 10:28:12 +0000 Subject: [esp-r] Re: problems with mouse In-Reply-To: <001201c712d2$362cb440$b2e1ad90@anthonyToshiba> References: <001201c712d2$362cb440$b2e1ad90@anthonyToshiba> Message-ID: <52B8C399-ECD5-4F77-8C0D-068F87CD3292@esru.strath.ac.uk> A recent question about using mouse in ESP-r.... > I did some simulations with the previous windows_native version, > but I installed the new version 11.2 last week on a LINUX environment. > > Now I realised that my mouse just works for the buttons next to the > dialogue messages, but not for image controls, main menu a.s.o > > Does someone of you have similar experience with the new version > and can help me solving my problem? > Depends on which version (X11 or GTK) you installed. The GTK version does not have keyboard sensitivity for menu selections like the X11 version does. This is an 'item in progress'. If you installed the GTK version on Linux you might try the X11 version and see if the mouse is still giving a problem. This is the first notification of a mouse issue on Linux. It would be helpful to know, specifically, in what way does the mouse not work in conjunction with the main menu? Is is possible on this machine to select any item on any control menu via any action from the user? Also, it would be useful to know what Linux distribution and what type of computer. For instance ESP-r is not yet stable on 64 bit computers. -ESRU -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061128/11dfdc0f/attachment.html From nuno.fernandes at mec.ua.pt Tue Nov 28 11:27:36 2006 From: nuno.fernandes at mec.ua.pt (Nuno Fernandes) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 11:27:36 -0000 Subject: [esp-r] warning messages from networks during simulation Message-ID: <000001c712e0$34bb1a80$9a7da8c0@acer6f41f6f6c8> Dear all esp-r users I have a question related with fluid flow networks. In my project I have a big zone that I have sub-divided. The contact surfaces between this zones (sub-divided) were set as transparent fictitious constructions. Them I have set an all air fluid flow networks between them and define the components between the interior nodes as openings corresponding to all the contact area between the zones. However when I rum the simulator a warning message appears: Please check (in the following order) that: - each node has some flow path to a boundary pressure and - iteraction convergence control is not to strict. Day 23 Month 12 Hour 13.00 : 100 iteractions: flows solution failed This happens for several days months and hours. Can someone explain me watts? wrong. Thanks in advance. Best regards, Nuno Fernandes ################################################# Nuno Tiago Afonso Fernandes Universidade de Aveiro Departamento de Engenharia Mec?nica Campus Universit?rio de Santiago 3810-193 Aveiro Portugal Tel.: +351 234 370 830 nuno.fernandes at mec.ua.pt www.ua.pt ########################################################## -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061128/4d9d5916/attachment-0001.html From aizaz.a.samuel at strath.ac.uk Tue Nov 28 11:51:59 2006 From: aizaz.a.samuel at strath.ac.uk (Aizaz Aamir Samuel) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 11:51:59 +0000 Subject: [esp-r] Re: warning messages from networks during simulation In-Reply-To: <000001c712e0$34bb1a80$9a7da8c0@acer6f41f6f6c8> References: <000001c712e0$34bb1a80$9a7da8c0@acer6f41f6f6c8> Message-ID: <1164714719.456c22df59161@cool.strath.ac.uk> Nuno, This message appears when the flow network has not been able to converge. This usually occurs when there is a mass imbalance at a node. Possible things to look for: 1. Do all nodes have a path to external nodes (even when controls are active) 2. Is the network illdefined (e.g. a node may have air flowing to it through some forced flow component but no means for the air to flow out from the node) Usually it is best to draw the flow network on paper and then troubleshoot it. -Aizaz Quoting Nuno Fernandes : > Dear all esp-r users > > > > I have a question related with fluid flow networks. > > > > In my project I have a big zone that I have sub-divided. The contact > surfaces between this zones (sub-divided) were set as transparent fictitious > constructions. > > > > Them I have set an all air fluid flow networks between them and define the > components between the interior nodes as openings corresponding to all the > contact area between the zones. > > > > However when I rum the simulator a warning message appears: > > > > Please check (in the following order) that: > > - each node has some flow path to a boundary pressure and > > - iteraction convergence control is not to strict. > > Day 23 Month 12 Hour 13.00 : 100 iteractions: flows solution failed > > > > > > This happens for several days months and hours. > > > > Can someone explain me watts? wrong. > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > Nuno Fernandes > > > > ################################################# > > Nuno Tiago Afonso Fernandes > > > > Universidade de Aveiro > > Departamento de Engenharia Mec?nica > > Campus Universit?rio de Santiago > > 3810-193 Aveiro > > Portugal > > Tel.: +351 234 370 830 > > nuno.fernandes at mec.ua.pt > > www.ua.pt > > ########################################################## > > > > > > From nuno.fernandes at mec.ua.pt Tue Nov 28 12:27:46 2006 From: nuno.fernandes at mec.ua.pt (Nuno Fernandes) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 12:27:46 -0000 Subject: [esp-r] roblems reading configuration file Message-ID: <000601c712e8$9ccd95a0$9a7da8c0@acer6f41f6f6c8> Dear esp-r users Another problem related with flow networks. When opening the project a warning message appears: WARNING in CdF_v1.cfg: chars not found for netw res string in: *sflr Warning: in CdF_v1.cfg past end of line for node name in Reading configuration line This is the message. Is it because the number of nodes conections and components? 17 nodes 19 components 19 conections The configuration line is: 0,10,11,1,2,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,13,14,15,16,5,12,0,0,0,0,0,3,0,0,0,0,0,0,0 ,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0, Do I have to delete some nodes conections and components? Thanks in advance Nuno Fernandes ################################################# Nuno Tiago Afonso Fernandes Universidade de Aveiro Departamento de Engenharia Mec?nica Campus Universit?rio de Santiago 3810-193 Aveiro Portugal Tel.: +351 234 370 830 nuno.fernandes at mec.ua.pt www.ua.pt ########################################################## -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061128/7b1e524e/attachment.html From nuno.fernandes at mec.ua.pt Tue Nov 28 12:42:41 2006 From: nuno.fernandes at mec.ua.pt (Nuno Fernandes) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 12:42:41 -0000 Subject: [esp-r] Re: warning messages from networks during simulation In-Reply-To: <1164714719.456c22df59161@cool.strath.ac.uk> Message-ID: <001101c712ea$bdef1cc0$9a7da8c0@acer6f41f6f6c8> Thanks Samuel Let me try to answer your questions. >1. Do all nodes have a path to external nodes (even when controls are >active) No, some nodes have only connections to other interior nodes, and at this time I have no controls. >2. Is the network illdefined (e.g. a node may have air flowing to it >through >some forced flow component but no means for the air to flow out from the >node) I do not have any kind of system its all temperature and pressure distribution through nodes. >Usually it is best to draw the flow network on paper and then troubleshoot >it. Thanks for the tip, but as I do not have many experience with networks I have draw the network first and than introduced it in the network and everything look correct. What do you mean with mass imbalance at a node? What could be the problem? Best regards Nuno Fernandes ################################################### Nuno Tiago Afonso Fernandes Universidade de Aveiro Departamento de Engenharia Mec?nica nuno.fernandes at mec.ua.pt ################################################### -----Original Message----- From: Aizaz Aamir Samuel [mailto:aizaz.a.samuel at strath.ac.uk] Sent: ter?a-feira, 28 de Novembro de 2006 11:52 To: Nuno Fernandes Cc: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk Subject: Re: [esp-r] warning messages from networks during simulation Nuno, This message appears when the flow network has not been able to converge. This usually occurs when there is a mass imbalance at a node. Possible things to look for: 1. Do all nodes have a path to external nodes (even when controls are active) 2. Is the network illdefined (e.g. a node may have air flowing to it through some forced flow component but no means for the air to flow out from the node) Usually it is best to draw the flow network on paper and then troubleshoot it. -Aizaz Quoting Nuno Fernandes : > Dear all esp-r users > > > > I have a question related with fluid flow networks. > > > > In my project I have a big zone that I have sub-divided. The contact > surfaces between this zones (sub-divided) were set as transparent fictitious > constructions. > > > > Them I have set an all air fluid flow networks between them and define the > components between the interior nodes as openings corresponding to all the > contact area between the zones. > > > > However when I rum the simulator a warning message appears: > > > > Please check (in the following order) that: > > - each node has some flow path to a boundary pressure and > > - iteraction convergence control is not to strict. > > Day 23 Month 12 Hour 13.00 : 100 iteractions: flows solution failed > > > > > > This happens for several days months and hours. > > > > Can someone explain me watts? wrong. > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > Nuno Fernandes > > > > ################################################# > > Nuno Tiago Afonso Fernandes > > > > Universidade de Aveiro > > Departamento de Engenharia Mec?nica > > Campus Universit?rio de Santiago > > 3810-193 Aveiro > > Portugal > > Tel.: +351 234 370 830 > > nuno.fernandes at mec.ua.pt > > www.ua.pt > > ########################################################## > > > > > > From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Tue Nov 28 12:55:54 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand (clcv10)) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 12:55:54 +0000 Subject: [esp-r] about the *sflr line in configuration files.... In-Reply-To: <000601c712e8$9ccd95a0$9a7da8c0@acer6f41f6f6c8> References: <000601c712e8$9ccd95a0$9a7da8c0@acer6f41f6f6c8> Message-ID: <8D7BA118-3C3C-427A-B4C8-A4CD03753C3E@esru.strath.ac.uk> A recent question about flow results.... > WARNING in CdF_v1.cfg: chars not found for netw res string in: > *sflr > Warning: in CdF_v1.cfg past end of line for node name in? > Reading configuration line? The line in the model configuration file beginning with *sflr is related to the definition of a simulation parameter set. A simulation parameter set holds information about one or more pre-defined simulations and holds information such as the period to be simulated and the name of the file(s) to save zone and flow and systems information to. A message like this tends to happen when an existing model with an existing simulation parameter set has added to it a flow network. The project manager does not automatically update the simulation parameter set. And you can do this manually in the simulation pararameter set menu. Once this information is included in your model the warning message will no longer show up. -ESRU -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061128/e4d5a85e/attachment.html From nuno.fernandes at mec.ua.pt Tue Nov 28 13:31:52 2006 From: nuno.fernandes at mec.ua.pt (Nuno Fernandes) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 13:31:52 -0000 Subject: [esp-r] Re: about the *sflr line in configuration files.... In-Reply-To: <8D7BA118-3C3C-427A-B4C8-A4CD03753C3E@esru.strath.ac.uk> Message-ID: <000001c712f1$911f89d0$9a7da8c0@acer6f41f6f6c8> Thanks Jon I have already added the flow network to the simulation parameter and it resolves half of the problem. It still appears the message: Warning: in CdF_v1.cfg past end of line for node name in Reading configuration line 0,10,11,1,2,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,13,14,15,16,5,12,0,0,0,0,0,3,0,0,0,0,0,0,0 ,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0, Does this have to do with the number of parameters in the fluid flow network? Nodes, conections and components. Tanks in advance Nuno Fernandes ################################################# Nuno Tiago Afonso Fernandes Universidade de Aveiro Departamento de Engenharia Mec?nica Campus Universit?rio de Santiago 3810-193 Aveiro Portugal Tel.: +351 234 370 830 nuno.fernandes at mec.ua.pt www.ua.pt ########################################################## _____ From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Jon Hand (clcv10) Sent: ter?a-feira, 28 de Novembro de 2006 12:56 To: Nuno Fernandes Cc: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk Subject: [esp-r] about the *sflr line in configuration files.... A recent question about flow results.... WARNING in CdF_v1.cfg: chars not found for netw res string in: *sflr Warning: in CdF_v1.cfg past end of line for node name in Reading configuration line The line in the model configuration file beginning with *sflr is related to the definition of a simulation parameter set. A simulation parameter set holds information about one or more pre-defined simulations and holds information such as the period to be simulated and the name of the file(s) to save zone and flow and systems information to. A message like this tends to happen when an existing model with an existing simulation parameter set has added to it a flow network. The project manager does not automatically update the simulation parameter set. And you can do this manually in the simulation pararameter set menu. Once this information is included in your model the warning message will no longer show up. -ESRU -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061128/9be33d39/attachment-0001.html From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Tue Nov 28 13:41:54 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand (clcv10)) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 13:41:54 +0000 Subject: [esp-r] Re: about the *sflr line in configuration files.... In-Reply-To: <000001c712f1$911f89d0$9a7da8c0@acer6f41f6f6c8> References: <000001c712f1$911f89d0$9a7da8c0@acer6f41f6f6c8> Message-ID: A loooonnnnnnggggg continuation line. > Warning: in CdF_v1.cfg past end of line for node name in? > Reading configuration line? > > 0,10,11,1,2,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,13,14,15,16,5,12,0,0,0,0,0,3,0,0,0,0 > ,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0, At the end of a configuration file there is a line of data that maps between the zones and the flow network nodes. Essentially a zero says there is no air flow node associated with the zone and a non-zero number is the index of the air flow node. The number of items in the list should equal the number of zones in the model. There seems to be a very long list here so it is likely that the project manager got rather confused at some point. Suggestion is to edit this to cut down the list and then go into the network flow interface menu and re-associate the nodes and zones and then save the model. -ESRU -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061128/a78bbf14/attachment.html From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Wed Nov 29 10:08:37 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand (clcv10)) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 10:08:37 +0000 Subject: [esp-r] Re: problems with mouse In-Reply-To: <000001c71398$7d65aa80$b2e1ad90@anthonyToshiba> References: <000001c71398$7d65aa80$b2e1ad90@anthonyToshiba> Message-ID: <6EA86D61-9CC6-4D19-AAB8-BA3D78869408@esru.strath.ac.uk> A user described a mouse that cooks breakfast for you and a laptop with a trackpad and a '4way scroll button'.... And ESP-r does not know how to interpret some of the mouse clicks.... Sounds like the mouse and track pad are way more clever than we anticipated. Essentially ESP-r knows nothing about extra mouse functionality beyond what a standard 3 button mouse offers (and actually the X11 version only assumes a basic mouse). With the GTK version of ESP-r there might be a way to leverage additional functions but other issues are higher up on the todo list. One work-around is to connect a standard 3 button mouse to your machine - that is a combination that we have tested. -ESRU From Monika.Hall at josef-gartner.ch Wed Nov 29 14:50:47 2006 From: Monika.Hall at josef-gartner.ch (Hall Monika) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 15:50:47 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] air flow rate in air flow net Message-ID: <5410907208A9F149ADB6E44744892B3C0641AD@sgartgum1.gart.intra> Dear all, I have a problem with my flow network. I have a constant air flow rate of 1.0 1/h for working days (7:00-18:00). All other times the air flow rate is constant 0.5 1/h. The simulation over the month June shows, that the air flow rate schedule changes suddenly from 26 June (see attachment). The same calculation in January shows, that there is no problem. The air flow rate is as it should be. Additionally I have a plant network installed. But this plant network consists of a cooling/heating coil with some ducts only. Did anyone have experience with that problem? Best regards Monika -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061129/a7e411e9/attachment-0001.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Displacement_air_flow_rate.pdf Type: application/octet-stream Size: 20386 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061129/a7e411e9/attachment-0001.obj From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Wed Nov 29 15:51:47 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand (clcv10)) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 15:51:47 +0000 Subject: [esp-r] Re: air flow rate in air flow net In-Reply-To: <5410907208A9F149ADB6E44744892B3C0641AD@sgartgum1.gart.intra> References: <5410907208A9F149ADB6E44744892B3C0641AD@sgartgum1.gart.intra> Message-ID: <92E93D40-4155-4734-B01E-9BF401DE0ACA@esru.strath.ac.uk> > I have a constant air flow rate of 1.0 1/h for working days > (7:00-18:00). All other times the air flow rate is constant 0.5 1/h. This caught my attention - one litre per hour is a really really small number in terms of air flow for any zone bigger than the box an ipod came in. This would be held as an equivalent m^3/s which is at the 4th decimal place and the 0.5 litre per hour might be at the 5th decimal place so it might be possible that simple rounding errors and numerical noise are factors. And a change in volume in a zone could easily result in a bigger flow than this fixed rate. Suggest a run with 10 litres per hour etc. to see if the glitch goes away. -ESRU -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061129/8ec80b32/attachment.html From Monika.Hall at josef-gartner.ch Thu Nov 30 07:09:52 2006 From: Monika.Hall at josef-gartner.ch (Hall Monika) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 08:09:52 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Re: air flow rate in air flow net Message-ID: <5410907208A9F149ADB6E44744892B3C070FC5@sgartgum1.gart.intra> Hello Jon, the unit is "one/hour" = ach You are right, with a liter per hour it would be a very small air change rate. I'm sorry, that it was not clear. Regards Monika _____ From: Jon Hand (clcv10) [mailto:jon at esru.strath.ac.uk] Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 4:52 PM To: Hall Monika Cc: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk Subject: Re: [esp-r] air flow rate in air flow net I have a constant air flow rate of 1.0 1/h for working days (7:00-18:00). All other times the air flow rate is constant 0.5 1/h. This caught my attention - one litre per hour is a really really small number in terms of air flow for any zone bigger than the box an ipod came in. This would be held as an equivalent m^3/s which is at the 4th decimal place and the 0.5 litre per hour might be at the 5th decimal place so it might be possible that simple rounding errors and numerical noise are factors. And a change in volume in a zone could easily result in a bigger flow than this fixed rate. Suggest a run with 10 litres per hour etc. to see if the glitch goes away. -ESRU -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061130/075f2793/attachment.html From F.Stift at exeter.ac.uk Wed Nov 29 09:26:46 2006 From: F.Stift at exeter.ac.uk (Florian STIFT) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 09:26:46 -0000 Subject: [esp-r] Re: problems with mouse In-Reply-To: <52B8C399-ECD5-4F77-8C0D-068F87CD3292@esru.strath.ac.uk> Message-ID: <000001c71398$7d65aa80$b2e1ad90@anthonyToshiba> Hy! I tried the X11 version of ESP-r yesterday but still the mouse doesn't work properly. I can select items from the main menu with my keyboard. I can not select any item from the main menu with my left or right mouse button but with scrolling down my mouse wheel! With the mouse pad only the 4way scroll button between the two mouse buttons works! It is the same for the image controls! (Just scrolling the wheel works as clicking ..) After selecting "open", the mouse works properly (clicking left mouse button) for the buttons next to the dialogue messages (e.g. "ok", "?", "d") at the bottom right of the Projectmanager Window. (but still not for any other items!). When answered all questions, the problem is the same I described at the beginning of the mail. The used Linux Distribution is "Mandriva One 2007" with GNOME Desktop. My Computer is an Acer TravelMate Laptop, Intel Centrino, 512 RAM, ATi , Logitech V100 Optical Notebook Mouse, Synaptics Touchpad Hope this helps! Florian Florian STIFT Research Assistant Centre for Energy and the Environment University of Exeter Tel: +44 (0) 1392 264145 Fax: +44 (0) 1392 264143 E-mail: f.stift at exeter.ac.uk Web: www.ex.ac.uk/cee -----Original Message----- From: Jon Hand (clcv10) [mailto:jon at esru.strath.ac.uk] Sent: 28 November 2006 10:28 To: Florian STIFT Cc: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk Subject: Re: [esp-r] problems with mouse A recent question about using mouse in ESP-r.... I did some simulations with the previous windows_native version, but I installed the new version 11.2 last week on a LINUX environment. Now I realised that my mouse just works for the buttons next to the dialogue messages, but not for image controls, main menu a.s.o Does someone of you have similar experience with the new version and can help me solving my problem? Depends on which version (X11 or GTK) you installed. The GTK version does not have keyboard sensitivity for menu selections like the X11 version does. This is an 'item in progress'. If you installed the GTK version on Linux you might try the X11 version and see if the mouse is still giving a problem. This is the first notification of a mouse issue on Linux. It would be helpful to know, specifically, in what way does the mouse not work in conjunction with the main menu? Is is possible on this machine to select any item on any control menu via any action from the user? Also, it would be useful to know what Linux distribution and what type of computer. For instance ESP-r is not yet stable on 64 bit computers. -ESRU -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061129/340bf9c5/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 103 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061129/340bf9c5/attachment.gif From cj at cr-jay.ca Sat Dec 2 05:02:24 2006 From: cj at cr-jay.ca (Chris Jones) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 00:02:24 -0500 Subject: [esp-r] Re: release of ESP-r version 11.2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20061202050218.DSFQ25276.simmts7-srv.bellnexxia.net@crj-3-4.cr-jay.ca> My compliments to the development team. This new install (new to me) system worked flawlessly. The easiest build/install I have done. I am using Solaris 10 as VMWare guest on an XP host. At 01:54 PM 11/10/2006, Beausoleil-Morrison, Ian wrote: >Content-class: urn:content-classes:message >Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C704F9.A7B00378" > >Dear ESP-r users and developers, > >Version 11.2 of the ESP-r system is now available. A summary of the >changes and new features included in this release is given at the >bottom of this e-mail. > >The source code may be accessed via the ESP-r Central Subversion >repository. To do this, you must first install a Subversion client >on your system. Free clients are available at >http://subversion.tigris.org/project_packages.html. > >Once you have installed the Subversion client you can download the >source code for version 11.2 of ESP-r anonymously using the following command: > > svn checkout > https://esp-r.net/espr/esp-r/trunk > OR > svn checkout > http://esp-r.net/espr/esp-r/trunk > >If you previously downloaded version 11.1 with the above command, >then you do not have to do a full download of version 11.2. Rather, >you can update the source code with the following command: > > svn update > https://esp-r.net/espr/esp-r/trunk > OR > svn update > http://esp-r.net/espr/esp-r/trunk > >(ESP-r developers who wish to make source code contributions to >ESP-r should contact me directly so that we can configure an account >for you on ESP-r Central. Further information on ESP-r Central for >developers is available on the ESRU web site.) > >ESP-r source code is available exclusively through ESP-r >Central. However, ESRU will continue to produce and post >pre-compiled versions for specific operating environments on its web >site. These binary versions will generally be made available within >a few days of a source code release and will be announced to this >e-mail list. Release notes will also continue to be posted on the >ESRU web site. > >Regards, >- Ian > >Ian Beausoleil-Morrison >ESP-r Archivist >Natural Resources Canada > > >Release Notes >11.2 (November 2006) >==================== >Generic Code Update >------------------- >- ESP-r can now be compiled using the gcc4/gfortran compiler set that > is shipped with many current Linux distributions. However, non-trivial > numerical differences have been found between ESP-r compiled with > gcc4/gfortran and ESP-r compiled with gcc3/g77. Consequently > gcc4/gfortran > builds should be considered beta for the time being. >- The 'Install' script has been redesigned to streamline the installation > process. A number of redundant user prompts have been removed and support > for compilations 'out of the box' has been improved for Sun > cc/f90 and MINGW. >- The 'Readme' file has been re-written to reflect recent changes to the > distribution and compilation of ESP-r, and to provide the user with more > information. >- The 'text-only' version of ESP-r was revived, allowing users to build ESP-r > on environments on which neither X11 nor GTK is available. > >Simulator >--------- >- The treatment for half-hour centred solar data (such as found in CWEC > climate files) has been updated so that sub-hour simulations use the > appropriate interpolation. This affects only solar data. >- A small bug affecting insolation analysis has been corrected. >- A new plant component model of an adsorption storage unit has been added > and variants of existing plant components for water storage tanks, > pumps, pipes, and a new controller have been created to support the > modelling of adsorption storage systems. Interested users are referred > to the M.A.Sc. thesis of Maria Mottillo, which is available in > the 'related > publications' section of the ESRU web site. >- A new plant component has been added for modelling solar thermal > collectors. Interested users are referred to a paper by Didier Thevenard, > Kamel Haddad, and Julia Purdy, which is available in the 'related > publications' section of the ESRU web site. >- A new boundary condition type has been added to the building thermal > domain to support the CEN 13791 standard. A treatment has also been added > to support the CEN 13791 approach for modelling surface convection. > (The CEN 13791 approach for treating solar absorption on the other side of > partitions will be added in a future release.) Numerous interface changes > have been incorporated to allow users to impose the CEN 13791 standard for > testing/validating projects. > >Project Manager >--------------- >- ISO 6946 U-values are now reported. >- Simulation presets can now support the integration of hourly results. >- The logic for flow component multi-sensor controllers has been reworked. >- Numerous changes have been made to improve program navigation and work > flow. >- Additional contextual help has been added, e.g. reporting of energy > balances, external pressure coefficients. >- There is increased use of GTK widgets to improve the operation of ESP-r > built with the GTK (versus the X11) libraries. >- The logic supporting optical property switching has been corrected and > extended. >- Improvements have been made to QA reports. >- Improvements have been made to the viewing of CFD domains and the feedback > provided to the user. >- A number of exemplar models have been improved. >- A bug caused problems when running models which included both pre-defined > simulation periods and a CFD domain. This has been repaired. >- A bug caused program crashes when a faulty zone fuzzy logic controller > was specified. This has been repaired. >- A facility has been added to allow the copying of infiltration/ventilation > and/or casual gains from other zones. Data can also be scaled by > zone volume or floor area. >- A bug related to the drawing of the site origin has been repaired. >- A new exemplar has been added with an abstract representation > of a heated floor and a chilled ceiling. > >Quality Control Utility >----------------------- >- A number of bugs were repaired in the regression tester. >- New functionality has been added to the regression tester to help > diagnose differences between reference and test versions of ESP-r > and to compare run-time differences. > >Additional Changes >------------------ >- Many additional changes have been made that are transparent to the user. > Information on these, as well as further details on all the > above-mentioned > changes, can be found in ESP-r Central's change log by providing the > following URL to your web browser: > https://esp-r.net/wsvn/espr/wsvn/esp-r/. > >_______________________________________________ >esp-r mailing list >esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk >http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r Chris Jones 14 Oneida Avenue Toronto, ON M5J 2E3. Tel. 416-203-7465 Fax. 416-946-1005 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061202/4d160963/attachment.html From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Mon Dec 4 10:16:31 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand (clcv10)) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 10:16:31 +0000 Subject: [esp-r] Re: ESP-r: Windows version 11.2 browse only problem In-Reply-To: <000001c71538$c0a3a350$db0dfe96@gorzenski01ee> References: <000001c71538$c0a3a350$db0dfe96@gorzenski01ee> Message-ID: A user who downloaded the version 11.2 native windows version of ESP-r noticed that models previously created by a user seem to be interpreted as being browse only (no modification allowed) when opening the model for the 2nd time. And we checked this out this morning and it does seem to be the case if you first click on the esp-r.cmd script to start the project manager (or use the desktop icon) and then use the file browser within the project manager to locate the model configuration file. If, instead you use Windows explorer or a Windows file manager to go to the model 'cfg' folder and you click on the icon of the model cfg file then the project manager correctly interprets the model as one which can be modified by the user. So, if you want to work with one of your own models or a model that you previously copied to your working area use the above technique to open up your model. Looks like we need to revisit the logic associated with the file browsing within the project manager to determine why it sets the browse flag incorrectly. The logic was intended to prevent users from accidentally corrupting the example models and/or standard databases that come with the standard distributiion. -ESRU From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Mon Dec 4 11:00:44 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand (clcv10)) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 11:00:44 +0000 Subject: [esp-r] Re: ESP-r: Cygwin version 11.2 browse only problem In-Reply-To: <4573FA67.7080109@ifc-collegen.de> References: <000001c71538$c0a3a350$db0dfe96@gorzenski01ee> <4573FA67.7080109@ifc-collegen.de> Message-ID: And the GTK version on Cygwin.... > I am running v11.2 using the Cygwin environment on a windows box, > self-compiled. > I've had similar problems: > - Opening a model (any model! Examples, my models from v11.1, a > newly-created model) would lead to browse-only status, regardless > of file access rights, regardless of file location in the cygwin > file tree. > In this case the work around would be to use the operating system commands to go to the 'cfg' folder of your model and THEN start up the project manager with the command line: prj -file xx.cfg where xx.cfg represents the name of the configuration file. That should work. And it is useful to know that the GTK cygwin version is showing the same symptoms as the native windows version (it is easier to debug in Cygwin than it is under native windows). -ESRU From thoele at ifc-collegen.de Tue Dec 5 11:14:01 2006 From: thoele at ifc-collegen.de (=?ISO-8859-15?Q?Gunnar_Th=F6le?=) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 12:14:01 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Is there any documentation on plant components? Message-ID: <45755479.9020005@ifc-collegen.de> Hello, as a happy Esp-r user for building simulation i am now making my first steps into plant networks. The problem i have come across is this: Which node of multi-node components do i connect my other components to? I am working with the ESP-R standard plant database. And, when using a boiler, for example, upon defining a component, i get asked "Which node to connect to: a water node b water node". I already know that Esp-r models components as bodies of fluids which are tightly connected. I suspect that my 2-node-boiler ("non-condensing boiler + aquastat control") is modelled as two bodies of fluids, seemingly both water. But: Is there any documentation on which node is what? Where do i get my hot water? Where do i supply the cold water? Or for other components like the 8-node radiator: Where do i connect it? I couldn't find any obvious documentation. Looking at the plant database with the database management module didn't really help in answering my question... Is there any documentation around, besides matrix coefficients in the plant database and one example of a wet central heating system? Thank you, Gunnar From oliver.bucks at club-internet.fr Tue Dec 5 11:54:52 2006 From: oliver.bucks at club-internet.fr (Oliver Bucks) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 12:54:52 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Re: Is there any documentation on plant components? References: <45755479.9020005@ifc-collegen.de> Message-ID: <000401c71864$2cc87780$f400a8c0@olli> Hello. Yes, I, also, would like to know. I am still trying to model sewage-sludge drying via solar radiation. I would be happy to be able to include a plant component which increases humidity release from a surface as a function on surface temperature. (Would this be possible in absence of a flow-network ) ? thanks Oliver Bucks ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gunnar Th?le" To: "ESP-r mailing list" The problem i have come across is this: > > Which node of multi-node components do i connect my other components to? > > I am working with the ESP-R standard plant database. > And, when using a boiler, for example, upon defining a component, i get > asked "Which node to connect to: a water node b water node". > I already know that Esp-r models components as bodies of fluids which > are tightly connected. > I suspect that my 2-node-boiler ("non-condensing boiler + aquastat > control") is modelled as two bodies of fluids, seemingly both water. > But: Is there any documentation on which node is what? > Where do i get my hot water? > Where do i supply the cold water? > > Or for other components like the 8-node radiator: Where do i connect it? > > I couldn't find any obvious documentation. Looking at the plant database > with the database management module didn't really help in answering my > question... > Is there any documentation around, besides matrix coefficients in the > plant database and one example of a wet central heating system? > > Thank you, > Gunnar From thoele at ifc-collegen.de Tue Dec 5 13:22:07 2006 From: thoele at ifc-collegen.de (=?ISO-8859-15?Q?Gunnar_Th=F6le?=) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 14:22:07 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Re: Is there any documentation on plant components? In-Reply-To: <059A9430C0AD2B48B4269206F42010C8036F8171@ARCHEX2.CAMPUS.TUE.NL> References: <059A9430C0AD2B48B4269206F42010C8036F8171@ARCHEX2.CAMPUS.TUE.NL> Message-ID: <4575727F.7050805@ifc-collegen.de> Yahiaoui, A. schrieb: > hi, > > The only doc that I am using at this moment is "esp-r_cookbook.pdf" > in which it can be found on ftp ESRU's server: > ftp://ftp.strath.ac.uk/Esru_public/documents/ > > I would be also glad if you would let me know whether other documents > are available. In my experience Esr-r is probably the most complete simulation package around. One example, a friend of mine is currently developing a computer tool to calculate view factors for vehicle cabins. That's basically useless because the mrt module already does it faster and easier... But it is definitely lacking in documentation! To help a bit: This is a summary of all ESP-R related documentation i found at least a bit helpful. Hoping this is of use for other ESP-R users. Introductory stuff ------------------ The ESP-R cookbook ftp://ftp.strath.ac.uk/Esru_public/documents/esp-r_cookbook.pdf The example models (in Project manager: Open exemplar, then pick one of the easier examples) The web-based training course from ESRU (highly recommended!) http://www.esru.strath.ac.uk/Courseware/ESP-r/content.htm More stuff ---------- Two documents trying to explain the Esp-r data model (sadly not really explaining the plant network data model...) Find them in /usr/esru/esp-r/manual/Data_model (somewhere else on native Windows installs) The userguide: ftp://ftp.strath.ac.uk/Esru_public/documents/ESP-r_userguide.pdf (also included within the distribution somewhere) The databases explained: Run the ESP-R database manager, pick a database, click "Browse or edit this file" then use the online help of the relevant database module to try and figure out stuff. Highly advanced, black-magic style stuff ---------------------------------------- The ultimate guide to everything, also known as The Sourcecode: (Shock horror, it's in Fortran!) Install a subversion client, then look here: http://www.esru.strath.ac.uk/Programs/ESP-r_central.htm The good practice guide for Developers: ftp://ftp.strath.ac.uk/Esru_public/documents/good_practice.pdf More or less all of those documentation files can be found on this page: http://www.esru.strath.ac.uk/publications.htm (and loads more) Enjoy, Gunnar From AFerguso at NRCan.gc.ca Tue Dec 5 13:44:12 2006 From: AFerguso at NRCan.gc.ca (Ferguson, Alex) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 08:44:12 -0500 Subject: [esp-r] Re: Is there any documentation on plant components? In-Reply-To: <45755479.9020005@ifc-collegen.de> Message-ID: Unfortunately, there is no concise documentation on ESP-r plant components. Jan Hensen's thesis provides a general description of ESP-r plant modelling methodologies and describes several of the earlier plant component models, including the boiler model you're referring to: ftp://ftp.strath.ac.uk/Esru_public/documents/PhD/hensen_thesis.pdf However, numerous models have been added to ESP-r since Hensen's dissertation. Many of these are documented in the theses and peer-reviewed papers presented on ESRU's website: http://www.esru.strath.ac.uk/publications.htm If you have an interest in a plant component model for which no documentation seemingly exists, I suggest sending a note to this list. In most cases, somebody will be able to dig up a report or paper about it. - Alex -----Original Message----- From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Gunnar Th?le Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 06:14 To: ESP-r mailing list Subject: [esp-r] Is there any documentation on plant components? Hello, as a happy Esp-r user for building simulation i am now making my first steps into plant networks. The problem i have come across is this: Which node of multi-node components do i connect my other components to? I am working with the ESP-R standard plant database. And, when using a boiler, for example, upon defining a component, i get asked "Which node to connect to: a water node b water node". I already know that Esp-r models components as bodies of fluids which are tightly connected. I suspect that my 2-node-boiler ("non-condensing boiler + aquastat control") is modelled as two bodies of fluids, seemingly both water. But: Is there any documentation on which node is what? Where do i get my hot water? Where do i supply the cold water? Or for other components like the 8-node radiator: Where do i connect it? I couldn't find any obvious documentation. Looking at the plant database with the database management module didn't really help in answering my question... Is there any documentation around, besides matrix coefficients in the plant database and one example of a wet central heating system? Thank you, Gunnar _______________________________________________ esp-r mailing list esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r From denny at esru.strath.ac.uk Tue Dec 5 13:56:00 2006 From: denny at esru.strath.ac.uk (Denny Beyer) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 13:56:00 +0000 Subject: [esp-r] Re: Is there any documentation on plant components? In-Reply-To: <45755479.9020005@ifc-collegen.de> References: <45755479.9020005@ifc-collegen.de> Message-ID: <200612051356.00738.denny@esru.strath.ac.uk> Documentation on plant systems is not very comprehensive at this stage. As been said already, you find descriptions of plant components in the * Source Code. In folder "esruplt/" Most components are implementet in files called "pcompX.F" (X = 1...4) and additional data in pcomps.F. Some newer components are placed in separate files and can be indentified by their name. * PhD Thesis Hensen J L M (1991) Aasem E O (1993) Kelly N J (1998) You will find all for download on the ESRU website in the Publications section. Denny On Tuesday 05 December 2006 11:14, Gunnar Th?le wrote: > Hello, > > as a happy Esp-r user for building simulation i am now making my first > steps into plant networks. > > The problem i have come across is this: > > Which node of multi-node components do i connect my other components to? > > I am working with the ESP-R standard plant database. > And, when using a boiler, for example, upon defining a component, i get > asked "Which node to connect to: a water node b water node". > I already know that Esp-r models components as bodies of fluids which > are tightly connected. > I suspect that my 2-node-boiler ("non-condensing boiler + aquastat > control") is modelled as two bodies of fluids, seemingly both water. > But: Is there any documentation on which node is what? > Where do i get my hot water? > Where do i supply the cold water? > > Or for other components like the 8-node radiator: Where do i connect it? > > I couldn't find any obvious documentation. Looking at the plant database > with the database management module didn't really help in answering my > question... > Is there any documentation around, besides matrix coefficients in the > plant database and one example of a wet central heating system? > > Thank you, > Gunnar > > > _______________________________________________ > esp-r mailing list > esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r From F.Stift at exeter.ac.uk Thu Dec 7 11:33:53 2006 From: F.Stift at exeter.ac.uk (Florian STIFT) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 11:33:53 -0000 Subject: [esp-r] Documentation for 3D ground modeling? Message-ID: <000001c719f3$9317b420$b2e1ad90@anthonyToshiba> Hy, I have recently started to work with ESP-r. I am trying to find out the influence of slab-on-ground floor insulation on the Energy Savings of Dwellings. Therefore I have to model three-dimensional ground connections. Is there any documentation on how to model three dimensional ground representations? Thank you, Florian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061207/05910967/attachment.html From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Thu Dec 7 14:09:06 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand (clcv10)) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 14:09:06 +0000 Subject: [esp-r] found and corrected browse only when revisiting ESP-r models Message-ID: <483331AD-72AA-4A2E-9B13-5D1ED9EF4573@esru.strath.ac.uk> A recent observation.... > I am running v11.2 using the Cygwin environment on a windows box, > self-compiled. > I've had similar problems: > - Opening a model (any model! Examples, my models from v11.1, a > newly-created model) would lead to browse-only status, regardless > of file access rights, regardless of file location in the cygwin > file tree. > > We have had a look at this issue and located a number of code issues that caused the browse toggle to be incorrectly set. The new code has been tested on Linux boxes, Solaris boxes and Cygwin boxes for both X11 and GTK versions as well as the Native Windows GTK version. The patches have been notified to the archivist and should find their way into the next release. -ESRU From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Thu Dec 7 14:56:03 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand (clcv10)) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 14:56:03 +0000 Subject: [esp-r] Re: Documentation for 3D ground modeling? In-Reply-To: <000001c719f3$9317b420$b2e1ad90@anthonyToshiba> References: <000001c719f3$9317b420$b2e1ad90@anthonyToshiba> Message-ID: <0F26DBC9-BD8C-4247-A7ED-FAD2334945A9@esru.strath.ac.uk> A recent question about 3D ground modelling... And the good news is that ESP-r has several different ways to represent interactions between a building and the ground starting from a) the ground is included in the definition of the slab construction (e.g. a number of layers making up ~1.5m thickness) b) use one of the basement correlations included in the BASESIMP method implemented by Natural Resources Canada (there are about a hundred different permutations of basements and slab- on grade. c) get truly passionate about 3D conduction and use the method from Nakhi A E 1995 and there is both a thesis and appendices available on the ESRU web site. And the word passionate is key for item "c". This is a niche topic and the code and interface are not much evolved from the raw PhD work of all those years ago. Computers are much faster now so it should be much less of a wait for the solution to converge. The thesis should provide quite a bit of background. Fair warning should be given that there might be Dragons lurking in that particular bit of code. -ESRU From Gunter.Pueltz at MuellerBBM.de Thu Dec 7 15:26:17 2006 From: Gunter.Pueltz at MuellerBBM.de (Pueltz, Gunter) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 16:26:17 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Building embedded radiative cooling/heating Message-ID: <2417729F3416D511A27E0090273A963B02786FD0@smex01.mbbm.de> Dear Aziz, is the transient 2D-radiant cooling/heating model, which has been developed by you, included in the new version 11.2 of ESP -r ? Can this model be used not only for suspended radiative cool paneels, but also for a "slab cooling" ? Slab cooling defined as water pipes integrated in the concrete layer of a ceiling, see attached figure. Regards, Gunter -- Gunter P?ltz M?ller-BBM GmbH Robert-Koch-Stra?e 11 82152 Planegg Telefon +49 (0)89 85602 - 336 Telefax +49 (0)89 85602 - 111 http://www.MuellerBBM.de > -----Original Message----- > From: Laouadi, Aziz [mailto:Aziz.Laouadi at nrc-cnrc.gc.ca] > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 6:57 PM > To: 'esp-r at strath.ac.uk' > Subject: RE: [ESP-r] Building embedded cooling/heating > > > > Dear Christian, > > There are different ways in simulating radiant heating or > cooling systems in > ESP-r, ranging from very simple to detailed models. I'll just > list some of > them: > > 1- fixed node temperature method: create a fictitious zone > with an imposed > control so that the air zone temperature is equal to the mean pipe > temperature. for more details consult the RADTEST > methodology of the IEA > task 22. > > 2- fixed node heat injection method: create the building > model, and locate > the piping position within the construction. Use the fixed > heat injection > control in esp-r to impose a heat flux on that node. While > this method > predicts well the amount of heat going to the space, it does > not, however, > tell a clue on the energy-source side (e.g. boiler or > chiller) whether or > not it meets the energy demand. > > 3- fixed node heat injection coupled with a plant network: this one is > similar to 2, except that it uses a plant network to > calculate the amount of > heat injected in the node. To do so, create a plant network > (e.g., boiler, > piping, pump, etc.) and use the containment heat loss of a > component (e.g., > piping) and link it to the node in the construction where the > pipe resides. > To my knowledge the containment heat loss has not been > implemented in ESP-r > (ESRU staff may have more info on this). > > 3- Use a detailed method that I developed for ESP-r. This > method uses a new > plant component model for radiant heating/cooling systems. > The method uses > a 2-D analytical model to compute the node temperature as a > function of the > heat source input and the building heat loss. You may consider the > following paper for more details on the model. However, the > radiant plant > component is not right now in the source distribution of > ESP-r. I hope > within the upcoming months, it will be in the distribution > source of esp-r. > > Paper: > > Laouadi, A. "Development of a radiant heating and cooling > model for building > energy simulation software," Building and Environment, 39, > (4), April, pp. > 421-431, Apr, 2004 > (NRCC-46099) > > > > > > Dr. Abdelaziz (Aziz) Laouadi > Research Officer > Indoor Environment Research Program > Institute for Research in Construction > National Research Council of Canada > 1200 Montreal Road, Building M-24 > Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, K1A 0R6 > Tel.: (613) 990 6868; Fax: (613) 954 3733 > Email: Aziz.Laouadi at nrc-cnrc.gc.ca > Web: http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/ie/light/skyvision/ > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Christian Martin M?lholm [mailto:s974606 at student.dtu.dk] > Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 3:16 AM > To: esp-r at strath.ac.uk > Subject: [ESP-r] Building embedded cooling/heating > > > > Dear all! > > We are 2 guys doing a study in building embedded > heating/cooling primary in > concrete slabs. We are going to do some field measurements in > full-scale and > may do modelling in esp-r. But we need some help and ideas > how to make a > model in esp-r. > Are there anyone who can help us! Right now we are > intermediate users in > esp-r. > > thank you. > > Niels & Christian > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: slab-cooling.png Type: application/octet-stream Size: 97918 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061207/c599af2d/attachment-0001.obj From woehrle at umt-ulm.de Thu Dec 7 16:50:41 2006 From: woehrle at umt-ulm.de (=?ISO-8859-15?Q?Heiko_W=F6hrle?=) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 17:50:41 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Airflow-Network Components Message-ID: <45784661.7030102@umt-ulm.de> Hello, when browsing through the airflow-network settings, everywhere in the help i got rephrended to the ESP-r manual section 3.6. But where is this Document? Guess it is not the Cookbook or the UserGuide... Or is there any other place where the components of airflow-networks are descirbed (apart from the source code)? Best regards, Heiko W?hrle Umweltmanagement und -technik GmbH Lise-Meitner-Str. 15 D-89081 Ulm Tel. +49 731 / 50 99 55 2 Fax +49 731 / 50 99 50 0 From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Thu Dec 7 17:30:28 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand (clcv10)) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 17:30:28 +0000 Subject: [esp-r] Re: Airflow-Network Components In-Reply-To: <45784661.7030102@umt-ulm.de> References: <45784661.7030102@umt-ulm.de> Message-ID: A recent question about documentation on air flow components. Each component has a synopsis which can be accessed from the project manager interface when a component is selected. Further information is in the source code. Often with references to the literature and with notes as to the equations implemented. And a really useful document is Jan Hensen's thesis 1991 thesis which is availble for download from the ESRU web site as a pdf file. And there are a dozen exemplar models which use flow networks that also might be a good resource for seeing how flow networks are put together. -ESRU From AFerguso at NRCan.gc.ca Thu Dec 7 13:07:25 2006 From: AFerguso at NRCan.gc.ca (Ferguson, Alex) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 08:07:25 -0500 Subject: [esp-r] Re: Documentation for 3D ground modeling? In-Reply-To: <000001c719f3$9317b420$b2e1ad90@anthonyToshiba> Message-ID: Hi Florian, ESP-r includes the BASESIMP module, which uses correlations derived from three-dimensional analysis of foundation heat loss to predict ground coupling heat transfer. In comparison to a traditional finite-element model, BASESIMP is much easier to configure and may meet your requirements provided i) your building uses one of the 67 different residential foundation systems for which BASESIMP correlations have been derived, and ii) the longest dimension of your foundation does not exceed 12 meters. You can learn more about the theoretical basis of BASESIMP here: http://www.hvac.okstate.edu/pdfs/bs97/papers/P051.PDF If BASESIMP is not suitable for your study, you may wish to use ESP-r's integral three-dimensional analysis module. The theoretical basis of this module is described in Abdul Nakhi's thesis: ftp://ftp.strath.ac.uk/Esru_public/documents/PhD/nakhi_thesis.pdf Good Luck. - Alex ________________________________ From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk [mailto:esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Florian STIFT Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 06:34 To: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk Subject: [esp-r] Documentation for 3D ground modeling? Hy, I have recently started to work with ESP-r. I am trying to find out the influence of slab-on-ground floor insulation on the Energy Savings of Dwellings. Therefore I have to model three-dimensional ground connections. Is there any documentation on how to model three dimensional ground representations? Thank you, Florian From oliver.bucks at club-internet.fr Fri Dec 8 14:48:36 2006 From: oliver.bucks at club-internet.fr (Oliver Bucks) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 15:48:36 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Evaporative surfaces - swimming pool References: Message-ID: <000e01c71ad7$f15ea130$a700a8c0@olli> Hello all, In further attempts to integrate an evaporative surface into a 'greenhouse' to ensure the solar drying of sewage sludge, I have found the entry "evaporative surface" in the "zone controls - period data" sub-menu. I am given two options, 1) Wet opaque surface 2) swimming pool >From the results, the "wet opaque surface" does not have any incidence upon the RH or temp. of the zone to which the conltrol is linked nor to any connecting zones. The "Swimming pool" option leads to a pop-up that states........ "You have chosen to incorporate a swimming pool model into this zone. This requires that 1) the floor internal convective heat tansfer coefficient and emissivity are set to small values (0.001) and that 2) the external boundary condition is set to adiabetic. Please do this after defining the pool data." My questions : a) Where do I change the 'internal convective heat transfer coefficient and emissivity' (does this fefer to the 'conductivity' and 'emissivity' parameters for the inside-face material used in in the floor construction ? b) do all the boundary conditions for the zone linked to the 'evporative surface' control have to be adiabetic (I hope not) ? c) Why do I get the following error message when simulating : "Geometry for zone UNKNOWN is not found" (or somesuch warning) ? - I note that the results from a simulation with this warning gives all zone temps. and RH as a constant 0 and 100% respectively many thanks, Olli Bucks From esp-r at heikowoehrle.de Sat Dec 9 09:25:28 2006 From: esp-r at heikowoehrle.de (esp-r at heikowoehrle.de) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 10:25:28 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Insolation through other zones Message-ID: <1165656328.457a8108317ce@www.domainfactory-webmail.de> Hello outthere, is there a way of getting direct radiation from another zone? i'm modelling a atrium at the moment with five zones stacked over each other, with fictious surfaces between them. With the normal calculation it looks like only the top zone gets the radiation from the glas roof, the other zones only get a diffuse radiation from the top zone. This may be appropirate for vertical glazings but with a horizontal glazing the ground zone should receive nearly all radiation on a summer midday. Is there any solution via the ish-module oder by calculating the daylight-factor? I was playing aorund with ish a bit but it looks like it works only for single zones with a transparent surface to external an not with transparent/fictious surfaces to other zones. thanks in advance Heiko Woehrle From rnsqks8646 at hanmail.net Sun Dec 10 11:11:59 2006 From: rnsqks8646 at hanmail.net (=?EUC-KR?B?vsi687OrtbU=?=) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 20:11:59 +0900 (KST) Subject: [esp-r] The position of low-e coating in double glass. Message-ID: <20061210201159.HM.000000000002YAG@rnsqks8646.wwl534.hanmail.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061210/5585ad7c/attachment.html From Achim.Geissler at josef-gartner.ch Mon Dec 11 07:13:25 2006 From: Achim.Geissler at josef-gartner.ch (Geissler Achim) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 08:13:25 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Re: Insolation through other zones Message-ID: <5410907208A9F149ADB6E44744892B3C0716F6@sgartgum1.gart.intra> Hi Heiko, for current architecture, that is probably one of the most limiting features of ESP-r: Direct radiation is followed through one transparent layer, only! For subsequent zones, the radiation is diffuse. As far as I am aware, using Radiance does not help, because radiance looks at light, only. One workaround is to tell ESP-r to distribute the incoming radiation to two main surfaces (somewhere in the construction menue branch). However, that has the limitation that the distribution chosen can not be changed during simulation. Another idea is maybe to check what angles of incidence occur and maybe expand the uppermost zone of the atrium so that most direct radiation is taken care of in it. For what its worth ... Regards, Achim > -----Original Message----- > From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk [mailto:esp-r- > bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk] On Behalf Of esp-r at heikowoehrle.de > Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 10:25 AM > To: ESP-r mailing list > Subject: [esp-r] Insolation through other zones > > Hello outthere, > > is there a way of getting direct radiation from another zone? i'm > modelling a > atrium at the moment with five zones stacked over each other, with > fictious > surfaces between them. > > With the normal calculation it looks like only the top zone gets the > radiation > from the glas roof, the other zones only get a diffuse radiation from the > top > zone. > > This may be appropirate for vertical glazings but with a horizontal > glazing the > ground zone should receive nearly all radiation on a summer midday. > > Is there any solution via the ish-module oder by calculating the > daylight-factor? I was playing aorund with ish a bit but it looks like it > works > only for single zones with a transparent surface to external an not with > transparent/fictious surfaces to other zones. > > thanks in advance > > Heiko Woehrle > > > _______________________________________________ > esp-r mailing list > esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061211/6e04ed69/attachment.html From Achim.Geissler at josef-gartner.ch Mon Dec 11 07:27:38 2006 From: Achim.Geissler at josef-gartner.ch (Geissler Achim) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 08:27:38 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Re: The position of low-e coating in double glass. Message-ID: <5410907208A9F149ADB6E44744892B3C0716FF@sgartgum1.gart.intra> Hi Young-Sub An, I do not quite understand what you are doing, however, here are some thoughts: - if you are not modeling the double glass as a zone, the low-e in the glass cavity has no influence. The U-value of the glass is approximated by adapting the thermal resistance of the glazing gap air. - the external emissivity of the double glass (pos. 1 and 4) actually used in the simulation can be checked in the construction file (.con): # for each surface: inside face emissivity 0.22000,0.99000,0.22000,0.99000,0.90000,0.90000,0.22000 # for each surface: outside face emissivity 0.22000,0.83700,0.22000,0.99000,0.90000,0.90000,0.22000 (where ?surface? actually should read ?construction?). My experience is that if the correct value is set here, there are feasible differences in the calculation results. Regards, Achim _____ From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk [mailto:esp-r- bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk] On Behalf Of ???? Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 12:12 PM To: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk Subject: [esp-r] The position of low-e coating in double glass. Dear esp-r user I analyzed surface temperature according to position of low-e coating in double glass. But, I find out the result that can't understand. The result of surface temperature is the very same case1 and case4, case2 and case3. guess that ESP-r program appear number? value of emissivity int and number? value of emissivity ext regardless of glass. Please, solve the problem. Thank you. Sincerely Young-Sub An ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- Case 1. -> Low-e coating is applied to number? of glass surface. Case 2. -> Low-e coating is applied to number? of glass surface. To apply on number? of glass surface changes the emissivity value. Case 3. -> Low-e coating is applied to number? of glass surface. To apply on number? of glass surface inverts glass(dlow24) of case 1. Case 4. -> Low-e coating is applied to number? of glass surface. To apply on number? of glass surface changes the emissivity value. (*^^*) ---------------------------------ooO--U--Ooo----- ? ? ? 305-719 ?? ??? ??? ? 16-1?? ??????? ????? 1? 313? ????/??/????? Tel : 042 821-1636 Mobil : 010-3002-0184 E-mail : rnsqks8646 at hanmail.net Homepage : http://hyunam.hanbat.ac.kr/~jhyoon -----------------------------------ooO-Ooo------- "?? ???, Daum" http://www.daum.net ????? ?? ????? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061211/d8312d04/attachment-0001.html From rnsqks8646 at hanmail.net Mon Dec 11 08:25:21 2006 From: rnsqks8646 at hanmail.net (=?EUC-KR?B?vsi687OrtbU=?=) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 17:25:21 +0900 (KST) Subject: [esp-r] The position of low-e coating in double glass. Message-ID: <20061211172521.HM.000000000002YAP@rnsqks8646.wwl534.hanmail.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061211/0172da13/attachment-0001.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Case3, 4.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 39653 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061211/0172da13/attachment-0002.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Case1, 2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 38496 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061211/0172da13/attachment-0003.jpg From paul at esru.strath.ac.uk Mon Dec 11 17:15:31 2006 From: paul at esru.strath.ac.uk (paul strachan) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 17:15:31 +0000 Subject: [esp-r] Re: Insolation through other zones In-Reply-To: <1165656328.457a8108317ce@www.domainfactory-webmail.de> References: <1165656328.457a8108317ce@www.domainfactory-webmail.de> Message-ID: <457D9233.5030407@esru.strath.ac.uk> Dear Heiko, Actually there is a "trick" for doing a more detailed insolation analysis for "internal" zones. For the second zone down, undertake an insolation analysis, then manually select the fictitious surface at the top of the zone and calculate the insolation distribution. The insolation distribution for direct solar will be calculated (and used in the simulator) as though the upper fictitious surface was an external surface. You can continue this for other zones, because ESP-r holds the direct and diffuse radiation separately for onward transmission. This gives a reasonable estimation of the insolation distribution where the depth of the zone is not too great, so that the assumption that the upper fictitious surface is external is a reasonable approximation. It also seems to work satisfactorily on double facades. Regards Paul esp-r at heikowoehrle.de wrote: > Hello outthere, > > is there a way of getting direct radiation from another zone? i'm modelling a > atrium at the moment with five zones stacked over each other, with fictious > surfaces between them. > > With the normal calculation it looks like only the top zone gets the radiation > from the glas roof, the other zones only get a diffuse radiation from the top > zone. > > This may be appropirate for vertical glazings but with a horizontal glazing the > ground zone should receive nearly all radiation on a summer midday. > > Is there any solution via the ish-module oder by calculating the > daylight-factor? I was playing aorund with ish a bit but it looks like it works > only for single zones with a transparent surface to external an not with > transparent/fictious surfaces to other zones. > > thanks in advance > > Heiko Woehrle > > > _______________________________________________ > esp-r mailing list > esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r > From erydjunaedy at gmail.com Mon Dec 11 16:52:23 2006 From: erydjunaedy at gmail.com (Ery Djunaedy) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 09:52:23 -0700 Subject: [esp-r] Re: The position of low-e coating in double glass. In-Reply-To: <5410907208A9F149ADB6E44744892B3C0716FF@sgartgum1.gart.intra> References: <5410907208A9F149ADB6E44744892B3C0716FF@sgartgum1.gart.intra> Message-ID: Hi Young-Sub, I tried to find the menu as indicated in the the attachments you sent. I could not find any menu where you can plug in different emissivity for inside and outside surface. What version of ESP-r is this? All: Is there a different menu for different install option of ESP-r? I am using the latest version of ESP-r but I could not find the menu as in Young-Sub's attachment. So far if I need to have different emissivity, I did what Achim suggested below, ie change it directly to the .con file. The only disadvantage of this work around is that everytime you update the construction file through the menu (in the zone menu, update all construction), this file got updated, ie the emissivity will be taken from the database, which has the same value for inside and outside surface. Then you have to re-input the different emissivity value in the .con file. Ery On 12/11/06, Geissler Achim wrote: > > Hi Young-Sub An, > > > > I do not quite understand what you are doing, however, here are some > thoughts: > > > > - if you are not modeling the double glass as a zone, the low-e in the > glass cavity has no influence. The U-value of the glass is approximated by > adapting the thermal resistance of the glazing gap air. > > - the external emissivity of the double glass (pos. 1 and 4) actually > used in the simulation can be checked in the construction file (.con): > > > > # for each surface: inside face emissivity > > 0.22000,0.99000,0.22000,0.99000,0.90000,0.90000,0.22000 > > # for each surface: outside face emissivity > > 0.22000,0.83700,0.22000,0.99000,0.90000,0.90000,0.22000 > > > > (where "surface" actually should read "construction"). > > > > My experience is that if the correct value is set here, there are feasible > differences in the calculation results. > > > > Regards, > > Achim > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk [mailto: > esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk] *On Behalf Of *???? > *Sent:* Sunday, December 10, 2006 12:12 PM > *To:* esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > *Subject:* [esp-r] The position of low-e coating in double glass. > > > > Dear esp-r user > > > > I analyzed surface temperature according to position of low-e coating in > double glass. > > But, I find out the result that can't understand. > > The result of surface temperature is the very same case1 and case4, case2 > and case3. > > guess that ESP-r program appear number? value of emissivity int and number > ? value of emissivity ext regardless of glass. > > Please, solve the problem. > > Thank you. > > > > Sincerely > > Young-Sub An > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Case 1. -> Low-e coating is applied to number? of glass surface. > > Case 2. -> Low-e coating is applied to number? of glass surface. > > To apply on number? of glass surface changes the emissivity value. > > > Case 3. -> Low-e coating is applied to number? of glass surface. > > To apply on number? of glass surface inverts glass(dlow24) of case > 1. > > Case 4. -> Low-e coating is applied to number? of glass surface. > > To apply on number? of glass surface changes the emissivity > value. > > > > > > > (*^^*) > ---------------------------------ooO--U--Ooo----- > ? ? ? > 305-719 ?? ??? ??? ? 16-1?? ??????? > ????? 1? 313? ????/??/????? > Tel : 042 821-1636 > Mobil : 010-3002-0184 > E-mail : rnsqks8646 at hanmail.net > Homepage : http://hyunam.hanbat.ac.kr/~jhyoon > -----------------------------------ooO-Ooo------- > > "?? ???, Daum" http://www.daum.net ????? ?? ????? > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > esp-r mailing list > esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061211/b7669622/attachment-0001.html From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Mon Dec 11 17:45:19 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand (clcv10)) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 17:45:19 +0000 Subject: [esp-r] Re: The position of low-e coating in double glass. In-Reply-To: References: <5410907208A9F149ADB6E44744892B3C0716FF@sgartgum1.gart.intra> Message-ID: <4C9EE0CF-E209-432C-8379-23F1B63EF300@esru.strath.ac.uk> A reminder about changing emissivity.... There has been some discussion about editing zone construction files. This is not a good idea in terms of QA (because the changes can be easily lost and some subtle errors can creep in when people manually edit files). The best way of doing it is to use the materials database and get a copy of the standard materials database into your model (there is an option in the project manager to do this) and then find a material that is similar to what you want an make a copy of it and change the surface properties as necessary as well as changing the documentation of the material to reflect what you changed and what the original was. Then in your construction database use the new material and the altered surface properties will be imported into your model files. Again - it is not a good idea to manually edit the zone files! -ESRU From Achim.Geissler at josef-gartner.ch Mon Dec 11 15:10:30 2006 From: Achim.Geissler at josef-gartner.ch (Geissler Achim) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 16:10:30 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Re: The position of low-e coating in double glass. Message-ID: <5410907208A9F149ADB6E44744892B3C071845@sgartgum1.gart.intra> Hi Young-Sub An, now it is clear: Your construction (!) has two faces: Internal and External. The intermediate glass faces of the 3 layered set up - as mentioned before - are not taken into account in regard to long wave radiation exchange, i.e., the insulating glazing is not modeled with an actual air gap featuring separate conduction, convection and radiation. Moreover, the gap thermal properties are summed up in the ?gap R?, 0.17 in your case. So, your cases 1 and 4 are the same as are cases 2 and 3. All is in order. Regards, Achim _____ From: esp-r-bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk [mailto:esp-r- bounces at lists.strath.ac.uk] On Behalf Of ???? Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 9:25 AM To: esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk Subject: [esp-r] The position of low-e coating in double glass. I analyzed surface temperature according to position of low-e coating in double glass. But, I find out the result that can't understand. The result of surface temperature is the very same case1 and case4, case2 and case3. I guess that ESP-r program appear number? value of emissivity int and number? value of emissivity ext regardless of glass. Please, solve the problem. Thank you. Sincerely Young-Sub An ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------- The following messages are to explain attached files(JPG). Case 1. -> Low-e coating is applied to number? of glass surface. Case 2. -> Low-e coating is applied to number? of glass surface. To apply on number? of glass surface changes the emissivity value. Case 3. -> Low-e coating is applied to number? of glass surface. To apply on number? of glass surface inverts glass(dlow24) of case 1. Case 4. -> Low-e coating is applied to number? of glass surface. To apply on number? of glass surface changes the emissivity value. Hanbat Nation University Architectural Environment,Planning,Equipment Research Unit Young-Sub, An San16-1,Deokmyung-dong,Yuseong-gu,Daejeon,305-719,KOREA TEL : +82-(0)42-821-1636 FAX : +82-(0)42-821-1115 Mobile : +82-(0)10-3002-0184 E-mail : rnsqks8646 at hanmail.net "?? ???, Daum" http://www.daum.net ????? ?? ????? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061211/ea2f271a/attachment.html From Achim.Geissler at josef-gartner.ch Tue Dec 12 07:29:24 2006 From: Achim.Geissler at josef-gartner.ch (Geissler Achim) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 08:29:24 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Re: The position of low-e coating in double glass. Message-ID: <5410907208A9F149ADB6E44744892B3C0718BA@sgartgum1.gart.intra> Hi Jon, generally, I agree with you. However, in hectic times, ESP-r is a bit too around the corner at places, here. I do not exactly remember where, but emissivity is / can be entered at more than one place - only one of which is relevant - in connection with constructions / materials (maybe true only for transparent materials). What I do certainly remember (and what we hopefully wrote to you at some point and what has been fixed in the mean time?) is that the QA report *did not* correctly report the emissivity values actually used. We hat quite a mixup due to this at the time. And, my suggestion was to *check* what values are being used in the .con file. Not necessarily edit them (because of what you write). Regards, Achim Mit freundlichen Gr?ssen / Best regards Achim Geissler > -----Original Message----- > From: Jon Hand (clcv10) [mailto:jon at esru.strath.ac.uk] > Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 6:45 PM > To: Ery Djunaedy > Cc: Geissler Achim; esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk; ???? > Subject: Re: [esp-r] Re: The position of low-e coating in double glass. > > > A reminder about changing emissivity.... > > There has been some discussion about editing zone construction > files. This is not a good idea in terms of QA (because the changes can > be easily lost and some subtle errors can creep in when people > manually edit files). > > The best way of doing it is to use the materials database and get a > copy of the standard materials database into your model (there is > an option in the project manager to do this) and then find a material > that is similar to what you want an make a copy of it and change the > surface properties as necessary as well as changing the documentation > of the material to reflect what you changed and what the original > was. > > Then in your construction database use the new material and the > altered surface properties will be imported into your model files. > > Again - it is not a good idea to manually edit the zone files! > > -ESRU -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061212/7b1b19b3/attachment.html From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Tue Dec 12 09:02:57 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand (clcv10)) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 09:02:57 +0000 Subject: [esp-r] Re: QA reporting of thermophysical properties In-Reply-To: <5410907208A9F149ADB6E44744892B3C0718BA@sgartgum1.gart.intra> References: <5410907208A9F149ADB6E44744892B3C0718BA@sgartgum1.gart.intra> Message-ID: > What I do certainly remember (and what we hopefully wrote to you at > some point and what has been fixed in the mean time?) is that the > QA report *did not* correctly report the emissivity values actually > used. We hat quite a mixup due to this at the time. The QA report reports what is in the databases for entities that matche a surface construction attribute e.g. *the optical property *the thicknesses of each layer *the thermophysical properties from the materials db entry for each layer. If someone has manually edited the raw data in the zone constructions file or the optical properties in a zone tmc file that is not reported in the multi-layer constructions used section of the QA report (it is assumed that you knew you hacked the files). The section in the QA report begins with the phrase 'Multi-layer constructions used' and perhaps this is not clear enough. Anyone have a suggestion for an alternative phrase? In terms of bugs - we have had reports that sometimes the QA report does not contain an entry for the first construction. Other than that if someone can supply us with models/reports where incorrect data was reported that would help us track down glitches. -ESRU -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061212/9db0fa6f/attachment-0001.html From Achim.Geissler at josef-gartner.ch Tue Dec 12 09:13:54 2006 From: Achim.Geissler at josef-gartner.ch (Geissler Achim) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 10:13:54 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Re: QA reporting of thermophysical properties Message-ID: <5410907208A9F149ADB6E44744892B3C0718E5@sgartgum1.gart.intra> Jon, don't put words in my mouth! The then faulty QA report was - of course - from a "non hacked" model (the term "hacked the files" is a bit overboard, isn't it? There are quite a few occasions where nothing else works ... as an example the too long whatever line if you have more than whatever number of zones ...). When we stumble across it again, we will be sure to mention it. Anyway, the more annoying part is the option to enter an emissivity at places in the data bases where it has no effect! That is what caused our problems back then. Achim Mit freundlichen Gr?ssen / Best regards Achim Geissler _____ From: Jon Hand (clcv10) [mailto:jon at esru.strath.ac.uk] Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 10:03 AM To: Geissler Achim Cc: Ery Djunaedy; esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk; Subject: Re: QA reporting of thermophysical properties What I do certainly remember (and what we hopefully wrote to you at some point and what has been fixed in the mean time?) is that the QA report *did not* correctly report the emissivity values actually used. We hat quite a mixup due to this at the time. The QA report reports what is in the databases for entities that matche a surface construction attribute e.g. *the optical property *the thicknesses of each layer *the thermophysical properties from the materials db entry for each layer. If someone has manually edited the raw data in the zone constructions file or the optical properties in a zone tmc file that is not reported in the multi-layer constructions used section of the QA report (it is assumed that you knew you hacked the files). The section in the QA report begins with the phrase 'Multi-layer constructions used' and perhaps this is not clear enough. Anyone have a suggestion for an alternative phrase? In terms of bugs - we have had reports that sometimes the QA report does not contain an entry for the first construction. Other than that if someone can supply us with models/reports where incorrect data was reported that would help us track down glitches. -ESRU -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061212/68dad03d/attachment.html From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Tue Dec 12 12:13:28 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand (clcv10)) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 12:13:28 +0000 Subject: [esp-r] 2nd request for comment on an ESP-r developers conference Message-ID: Dear ESP-r Developers, The pace of ESP-r evolution is picking up speed a) there have been more than 700 commits to the source code repository since it was established earlier this year! b) there are at least a dozen active branches in the source code repository c) procedures have been work out for detailed testing d) a native windows version has been released into the wild and quite a bit of work is going on behind the scenes to test and improve those facilities. e) a new email list for the core development team (those with code branches) ESRU are considering holding another ESP-r developer's conference in 2007. This would feature presentations on such topics as: developments in the interface, simulation engine and results assessment; and integration with 3rd party software. We would also like to hold some sessions on the future strategy for ESP-r development: a) identifying priorities for development work, b) expanding the developer and user base, c) identifying funding sources for software development and making best use of ESP-r's open source status. d) identifying issues of interest to typical users We might also combine this will some advanced workshops on topics of interest to the community. A tentative location and date for the event would be Glasgow, Spring 2007. If you would be interested in attending such an event, contributing to such an event or suggesting topics then please reply by return e-mail. ------------------------- [ ] I would be interested in attending Name: email: [ ] I would like to contribute a presentation (details below) [ ] I would like to suggest a topic(s) for discussion (details below) [ ] I would like to learn more about working with the svn environment (i.e. would attend a workshop on svn skills) [ ] I already have a source code branch [ ] I am thinking about joining the development community [ ] I have an idea for a new facility and I want to find others who might join me facility description:____ skills I have:____ ideas for contributions by others:____ [ ] I know someone else who might contribute to the evolution of ESP-r: name: email: what their contribution might be: Regards, -ESRU From rnsqks8646 at hanmail.net Wed Dec 13 13:55:35 2006 From: rnsqks8646 at hanmail.net (=?EUC-KR?B?vsi687OrtbU=?=) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:55:35 +0900 (KST) Subject: [esp-r] [RE]esp-r Digest, Vol 5, Issue 13 Message-ID: <20061213225535.HM.000000000002YAy@rnsqks8646.wwl534.hanmail.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061213/8783dad1/attachment.html From Monika.Hall at josef-gartner.ch Wed Dec 13 15:43:22 2006 From: Monika.Hall at josef-gartner.ch (Hall Monika) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 16:43:22 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] plant cooling coil makes trouble Message-ID: <5410907208A9F149ADB6E44744892B3C071AD0@sgartgum1.gart.intra> Dear all, some days ago I send my problem with the fan control around. Unfortunately nobody answered me. My model includes a "Raum" (like an office), an air flow net and a plant. The air flow net consists of a fan and some openings. The fan makes from 7:00 -18:00 an constant air change rate of 1.0 ach and otherwise 0.5 ach. The plant includes a cooling coil and some ducts only. Now I have done some further experiments. Please see the attachement. My problems are: When the cooling coil (plant) works, the set-up of the fan in the flow net work gets in big trouble and the note-temperatures are different in the network and in the flow net work. Did anyone know this problem? Is a plant without fan possible? What can I do? Regards Monika -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061213/9c3d2399/attachment-0001.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: network and cooling coil.pdf Type: application/octet-stream Size: 58844 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061213/9c3d2399/attachment-0001.obj From rnsqks8646 at hanmail.net Thu Dec 14 05:36:03 2006 From: rnsqks8646 at hanmail.net (=?EUC-KR?B?vsi687OrtbU=?=) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 14:36:03 +0900 (KST) Subject: [esp-r] What are the methods to can adjust the absolute humidity in the zone? Message-ID: <20061214143603.HM.000000000002YBE@rnsqks8646.wwl534.hanmail.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061214/8a125e73/attachment.html From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Thu Dec 14 09:19:03 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand (clcv10)) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 09:19:03 +0000 Subject: [esp-r] Re: What are the methods to can adjust the absolute humidity in the zone? In-Reply-To: <20061214143603.HM.000000000002YBE@rnsqks8646.wwl534.hanmail.net> References: <20061214143603.HM.000000000002YBE@rnsqks8646.wwl534.hanmail.net> Message-ID: <9A114268-9BFC-45B1-9D4C-7F7CD58B81F7@esru.strath.ac.uk> A recent question: ::What are the methods to can adjust the absolute humidity in the zone, if it is used to ::humidifier? The answer depends on the use of the word "adjust". One could add a latent casual gain of X watts in the zone operations file to increase the RH in the room. There are options in the ideal zone control to control RH by adding or extracting X grams of moisture (temperature control is secondary) or with RH control secondary. The term "absolute humidity" tends not to be used outside of the detailed system components. It would probably not be all that difficult to express this in terms of absolute humidity but no one has implemented this yet. I have noticed a bit a chatter on the site about treating moisture like a contaminate and setting up air flow controls based on the moisture contaminate levels. There are options to include the zone in a detailed system component network and in that context you have quite a few options and you can track psychrometrics in detail. Perhaps others in the community will have additional suggestions. -ESRU -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061214/6dcc67f6/attachment.html From g.ulukavak.harputlugil at gmail.com Sat Dec 16 17:03:49 2006 From: g.ulukavak.harputlugil at gmail.com (Gulsu Ulukavak Harputlugil) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 19:03:49 +0200 Subject: [esp-r] can not be able to simulate with Esp-r version 11.2 Message-ID: Hi All, I am trying to simulate my old version (esp-r 9) models with newest Esp-r 11.2. Unfortunately I can not be able to run simulations. I updated all the files of my model...I am using cygwin X11...Everything seems ok. There is no error message at all...However when I click on simulation "nothing happens". I expect the simulator window but it is not open, and there is no error message. Did I do something wrong? Anyone can help me? To solve this problem is very very urgent for me... Thanks in advance... Gulsu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061216/4b025d9f/attachment.html From na at design-sim.com Sat Dec 16 22:38:06 2006 From: na at design-sim.com (Nicolas Aizier) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 23:38:06 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Re: can not be able to simulate with Esp-r version 11.2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4584754E.5090007@design-sim.com> Gulsu, In order to avoid problem with model updating, make sure you've got only the necessary file for your model, and to do so use the archive option to archive only the necessary files used in your model. Then, make sure all the binaries files are related to the esp-r version,(and / or hardware) you're using, For instance, shading files (*.shd) need to be updated with the version of ish used by the ESP-r version 9. Also, all databases in general need to be compiled with the version 9 of esp-r, especially climate data. To transfer the databases between the two esp-r installation, you better use the ASCII transfer and recompile the databases with the version 9. Hope that helps, Nicolas > Hi All, > I am trying to simulate my old version (esp-r 9) models with > newest Esp-r 11.2. Unfortunately I can not be able to run > simulations. I updated all the files of my model...I am using cygwin > X11...Everything seems ok. There is no error message at all...However > when I click on simulation "nothing happens". I expect the simulator > window but it is not open, and there is no error message. Did I do > something wrong? > > Anyone can help me? To solve this problem is very very urgent for me... > Thanks in advance... > > > Gulsu > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > esp-r mailing list > esp-r at lists.strath.ac.uk > http://lists.strath.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/esp-r > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.21/589 - Release Date: 15/12/2006 17:10 > -- Nicolas Aizier Simulation & Design 7 rue de Strasbourg 39330 Mouchard Tel : 03.84.73.81.34 From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Sun Dec 17 23:14:26 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 23:14:26 -0000 Subject: [esp-r] Re: can not be able to simulate with Esp-r version 11.2 References: Message-ID: A recent question.... I am trying to simulate my old version (esp-r 9) models with newest Esp-r 11.2. Unfortunately I can not be able to run simulations. I updated all the files of my model...I am using cygwin X11...Everything seems ok. There is no error message at all...However when I click on simulation "nothing happens". I expect the simulator window but it is not open, and there is no error message. Did I do something wrong? Anyone can help me? To solve this problem is very very urgent for me... Thanks in advance... -------------------- Some errors that the simulator detects may not get reported in a way that the user can see when running in graphic mode because the application terminates. To see potential errors try starting up the simulator in text mode as in: bps -mode text -file the_config_file other_command_line_options and look for messages. And it is always a good idea to generate a fresh QA report in the project manager - this forces most of the model to be scanned and problems may be reported. And if you find a warning or error when reading in an old model please report this - it may be possible to include better checking of older models. -ESRU From arp04rl at sheffield.ac.uk Mon Dec 18 02:18:10 2006 From: arp04rl at sheffield.ac.uk (Rong Li) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 02:18:10 -0000 Subject: [esp-r] solar radiation code in esp-r References: <4584754E.5090007@design-sim.com> Message-ID: <002401c7224a$c350b880$6f1ba78f@youre44c364498> Hi all, My project deals with the energy simulation of an atrium space in which part of the vertical walls can be heated by the sun. Is it possible for the solar radiation code in esp-r to calculate the distribution of solar radiation so that the temperatures for both heated and unheated parts can be obtained for each time step and then coupled with CFD? As I understand, CFD can only give uniform boundary condition for each wall during coupling process. If not, is there any radiation code available that can be incorporated into esp-r for this purpose? Thanks very much in advance. Rong Li From Achim.Geissler at josef-gartner.ch Tue Dec 19 16:25:20 2006 From: Achim.Geissler at josef-gartner.ch (Geissler Achim) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 17:25:20 +0100 Subject: [esp-r] Using mrt for view factor calculation Message-ID: <5410907208A9F149ADB6E44744892B3C08B4C7@sgartgum1.gart.intra> Hi ESP-r-ers, has anybody used mrt for ray tracing based view factor calculation (as was suggested a little while ago) on any problems with many surfaces? Are there known limits? I tried this in a zone with 24 surfaces (see attached files, if interested). Mrt does not seem to be able to cope with this based on default settings for compile (I set the two parameters "grid division" and "patch division" to maximum values - in this case 32 and 50). The results are mainly zeroes ... for the zone view factors themselves and for the MRT sensor. Is there any experience on this out there? What / where would one need to change settings in the headers and recompile for higher resolution? Has that been done / checked in the past? Thanks! Best regards, Achim Geissler -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061219/c65d5e09/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: wr.zip Type: application/octet-stream Size: 4504 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061219/c65d5e09/attachment.obj From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Tue Dec 19 17:24:08 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand (clcv10)) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 17:24:08 +0000 Subject: [esp-r] Re: Using mrt for view factor calculation In-Reply-To: <5410907208A9F149ADB6E44744892B3C08B4C7@sgartgum1.gart.intra> References: <5410907208A9F149ADB6E44744892B3C08B4C7@sgartgum1.gart.intra> Message-ID: A recent question about the use of the MRT module to calculate viewfactors and how complex the zones geometry can be.... > has anybody used mrt for ray tracing based view factor calculation > (as was suggested a little while ago) on any problems with many > surfaces? Are there known limits? I tried this in a zone with 24 > surfaces (see attached files, if interested). Mrt does not seem to > be able to cope with this based on default settings for compile (I > set the two parameters ?grid division? and ?patch division? to > maximum values ? in this case 32 and 50). The results are mainly > zeroes ? for the zone view factors themselves and for the MRT sensor. > > Is there any experience on this out there? What / where would one > need to change settings in the headers and recompile for higher > resolution? Has that been done / checked in the past? The MRT module has been tested for zones up to about 55 surfaces and with gridding division set within the range of 12-25. Usually the patch division value does not get changed (i.e. I do not bother changing it). The interface should let you know the maximum values it will allow for the number of sufaces in the zone. The patch division is intended to put an array of points distributed across the surface and this usually works ok UNLESS some of the dimensions are small - for example if a surface has had a window inserted and the edge of the window and the nearest edge of the bounding surface is less than 40mm then there may be no points falling in that part of the bounding surface and the method will loose accuracy. The other case where the calculation is less accurate is if a surface has more than about 18 edges and in that case the accuracy is improved if such surfaces are split into two surfaces. And MRT does get confused if someone has defined a zone which is uniformally inside-out (which can happen if someone defines a zone as an extruded floor plan but puts the list of X-Y coordinates in reversed order. If the sizes of surfaces within a zone include some with only a few square mm and others with say 1000m2 then we would suggest some subdivision of the really big surfaces. The model that was attached to the original question does have a number of surfaces that have small dimensions in comparison to the primary surfaces of the zone. An initial suggestion is to subdivide some of the larger surfaces, especially the floor and ceiling. -ESRU -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.strath.ac.uk/archives/esp-r/attachments/20061219/48442034/attachment.html From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Fri Dec 22 15:42:17 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 15:42:17 -0000 Subject: [esp-r] FW: Question about ground modelling - call for interest References: <001401c725b8$5eb3cb80$b2e1ad90@anthonyToshiba> Message-ID: To the community..... Recently there has been some interest in brining the ground conduction model in ESP-r from its current trully obscure status to some thing that is approachable by (at least some) of the rest of us. The email below is an example... The sorts of skills/ information this is going to require is: a) the belief that ground heat transfer is an important issue b) sufficient experience/intuition to appraise whether the predictions are in line with observations c) some field measurement data for comparison d) some coding skills - use of a debugger and (something like Sherlock Holmes had) to explore and document the existing code. e) reading of the PhD work that was done 6-8 years ago to confirm the methods. Anyone interested in starting up an interest group, contributing information, or helping with the coding or testing? -Jon Hand -----Original Message----- From: Florian STIFT [mailto:F.Stift at exeter.ac.uk] Sent: Fri 12/22/2006 11:00 AM To: Jon Hand Subject: RE: Question about ground modelling! Jon, The reason I am asking is that I want to write my thesis (similar to Master thesis) about 3D ground modelling especially the influence of ground slab insulation on whole building energy consumption. Do you have any contact details you could give me from persons you know who used this facility of ESP before? Or are there any other documentations about how to realize a three dimensional ground connection within ESP? I thank you for all kinds of help! Have a nice Christmas, and a happy new year!!! Best Regards, Florian From jon at esru.strath.ac.uk Fri Dec 22 17:51:50 2006 From: jon at esru.strath.ac.uk (Jon Hand) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 17:51:50 -0000 Subject: [esp-r] some users report being able to run prj but not bps Message-ID: We have gotten a few emails from people who recently downloaded esp-r and who are able to run the project manager (prj) but are unable to start the simulator (bps). This may be because the latest compile of the simulator application includes additional facilities to write out XML reports (primarily used by a group in Canada). And this facility requires three libraries/dll files to exist on your machine. If you have these symptoms then you might check the download site for your particular operating system and look for the following libraries: libxml2 and libstdc++ and libxslt -ESRU